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nodogoshiModerator- Location : Oregon, USA
Posts : 4754
Join date : 2011-11-15
Fighters who constantly switch stances
Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:38 pm
I've noticed this as a largely negative trend in MMA.
There seem to be guys that switch stances well, but they seem few and far between, among the guys that switch stances a lot.
I've seen plenty of guys switching stances too close to their opponent. I've seen multiple fights where I said to myself, "this guy's opponent is going to time his switch, and he's going to end up squared up in front of his guy, and eating punches."
I've seen guys knocked out this way.
A lot of guys that switch a lot seem to be more intent on point fighting, touching and running. They switch, trying to be cute and flashy.
I see other guys who will say, quickly switch to southpaw, and throw a left high kick. I've seen these guys have their switch timed, as well.
I'm just pointing this out, as something I've observed a lot lately. There are some exceptions of guys who seem to do it correctly (or at least efffectively), like Sage Northcut, for example.
MMA is not like boxing, because there are more strikes and more angles to strike from. It is actually quite rare in boxing for a guy to be a truly effective switch hitter, who switches stance and would not be better off in their normal stance. Usually it is done by prospects with strong amateur backgrounds, who do it in early fights, against over matched opponents. Occasionally there is a guy who actually switches stance and is effective. Strangely, Tyson Fury is such a guy.
Because of the additional angles and strikes, there is perhaps more good reason to switch stances in MMA. In addition, some guys will switch stances to protect their lead leg; also, in wrestling right handers typically have their right foot forward, so some guys have fought accordingly (though it's a weakness--unless you are like Robbie Lawler, who is a right hander that fights southpaw).
All in all, when you see a guy switching stances a lot, just wait for him to square up in front of his opponent, or to get timed in the middle of a switch; or, to switch, and then be immediately hit with aggression and be unable to properly cope.
There seem to be guys that switch stances well, but they seem few and far between, among the guys that switch stances a lot.
I've seen plenty of guys switching stances too close to their opponent. I've seen multiple fights where I said to myself, "this guy's opponent is going to time his switch, and he's going to end up squared up in front of his guy, and eating punches."
I've seen guys knocked out this way.
A lot of guys that switch a lot seem to be more intent on point fighting, touching and running. They switch, trying to be cute and flashy.
I see other guys who will say, quickly switch to southpaw, and throw a left high kick. I've seen these guys have their switch timed, as well.
I'm just pointing this out, as something I've observed a lot lately. There are some exceptions of guys who seem to do it correctly (or at least efffectively), like Sage Northcut, for example.
MMA is not like boxing, because there are more strikes and more angles to strike from. It is actually quite rare in boxing for a guy to be a truly effective switch hitter, who switches stance and would not be better off in their normal stance. Usually it is done by prospects with strong amateur backgrounds, who do it in early fights, against over matched opponents. Occasionally there is a guy who actually switches stance and is effective. Strangely, Tyson Fury is such a guy.
Because of the additional angles and strikes, there is perhaps more good reason to switch stances in MMA. In addition, some guys will switch stances to protect their lead leg; also, in wrestling right handers typically have their right foot forward, so some guys have fought accordingly (though it's a weakness--unless you are like Robbie Lawler, who is a right hander that fights southpaw).
All in all, when you see a guy switching stances a lot, just wait for him to square up in front of his opponent, or to get timed in the middle of a switch; or, to switch, and then be immediately hit with aggression and be unable to properly cope.
CDF47G-MMA Rankings- Location : United States
Posts : 13469
Join date : 2011-12-04
Re: Fighters who constantly switch stances
Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:14 pm
Nice breakdown Nodo. I will watch for that.
Hamilcar- Location : Hangzhou
Posts : 1168
Join date : 2013-10-23
Re: Fighters who constantly switch stances
Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:34 pm
I'm no Jack Slack, but I'll chime in here.
Your anaylsis is exactly what I'ld expect. I'm not as observant of fight tactics that I'ld like to be, but that is my prediction.
In martial arts, there is a huge emphasis on being able to strike effectively from both angles, not just in a, "Hey, you never know when you'll be stuck in a position where you have to strike Southpawed, so let's drill it a bit", but more in a "Master both stances sense." This has always seemed retarded to me, especially in martial arts. In Taekwondo, you learn how to kick from your front leg. Like, this is kiddie-basic stuff in Taekwondo. So, if I am ever forced into Southpaw, all that does is open up new weapons, kicking techniques. I don't feel like laying it all out here, but pretty much, I just have a different aresenal in the two different stances thanks to the diversity of techniques I've been taught. It's like fighting in a different form or stance in a video game.
In Muay Thai, they think you can only kick from the back leg. So, they have to do a switch kick or entirely switch stances just to throw a kick with their front leg. It took me something like two months just to learn that technique. Useful, but I feel retarded just to throw a kick.
Anyway, I see absolutely nothing wrong with having a strong side. I don't think you need to learn to switch stances just in the off-chance you're out foot-worked or (the example they always give) because a limb is broken. Sorry, if that happens you already lost the fight.
Your anaylsis is exactly what I'ld expect. I'm not as observant of fight tactics that I'ld like to be, but that is my prediction.
In martial arts, there is a huge emphasis on being able to strike effectively from both angles, not just in a, "Hey, you never know when you'll be stuck in a position where you have to strike Southpawed, so let's drill it a bit", but more in a "Master both stances sense." This has always seemed retarded to me, especially in martial arts. In Taekwondo, you learn how to kick from your front leg. Like, this is kiddie-basic stuff in Taekwondo. So, if I am ever forced into Southpaw, all that does is open up new weapons, kicking techniques. I don't feel like laying it all out here, but pretty much, I just have a different aresenal in the two different stances thanks to the diversity of techniques I've been taught. It's like fighting in a different form or stance in a video game.
In Muay Thai, they think you can only kick from the back leg. So, they have to do a switch kick or entirely switch stances just to throw a kick with their front leg. It took me something like two months just to learn that technique. Useful, but I feel retarded just to throw a kick.
Anyway, I see absolutely nothing wrong with having a strong side. I don't think you need to learn to switch stances just in the off-chance you're out foot-worked or (the example they always give) because a limb is broken. Sorry, if that happens you already lost the fight.
- nodogoshiModerator
- Location : Oregon, USA
Posts : 4754
Join date : 2011-11-15
Re: Fighters who constantly switch stances
Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:17 pm
Oh far be it for me to actually think I could try to tell fighters how they should fight.
My thing is that I feel I've seen a lot of guys getting caught in between. Fine be me. It also takes their opponent putting himself in the position, and taking advantage of the opportunity, though.
My thing is that I feel I've seen a lot of guys getting caught in between. Fine be me. It also takes their opponent putting himself in the position, and taking advantage of the opportunity, though.
- nodogoshiModerator
- Location : Oregon, USA
Posts : 4754
Join date : 2011-11-15
Re: Fighters who constantly switch stances
Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:57 pm
I'm watching KSW 41 right now, and I'm on Kleber Koike Erbst vs Artur Sowinski. No spoilers, as I've just watched the first round.
To my amateur's eye though, Erbst seems like a guy that switches really well. He does it constantly, but he seems to do so at the right distance and very smooth.
I certainly meant to imply that I've seen it done well. Another thing, Erbst seems to use little energy with this tactic, it is rather seamless.
To my amateur's eye though, Erbst seems like a guy that switches really well. He does it constantly, but he seems to do so at the right distance and very smooth.
I certainly meant to imply that I've seen it done well. Another thing, Erbst seems to use little energy with this tactic, it is rather seamless.
- nodogoshiModerator
- Location : Oregon, USA
Posts : 4754
Join date : 2011-11-15
Re: Fighters who constantly switch stances
Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:22 pm
- Sowinski-Erbst:
- I had to chime in again, because of how the fight was ended by Erbst in the 3rd round.
Sowinski was fighting southpaw at the time, and one of the commentators commented on it. He said, 'it's a real treat to see Sowinski fighting southpaw. He's doing that for one because of the boxing, to give Erbst some different looks. And also, I think in order to punish Erbst when he shoots."
I think that Sowinski was trying to counter Erbst's switches by switching himself. But that's often a bad idea. Recently, Terrence Crawford took on the tall, awkward, gangly southpaw, Julius Indongo. Crawford fought southpaw, and dominated, with a knockout in about 5. Teddy Atlas said at the start, "there are different ways to deal with a southpaw, one, fight fire with fire."
However, Crawford is a very special fighter. He is without a doubt one of the most technical active boxers right now in the sport.
Just then while Sosnowski was southpaw, Erbst rushed him with a combination of punches, some landing, got him on the ropes, managed to get his back, and choked him out.
I may be overstepping to say I think Sosnowski should have stuck with orthodox. It's impossible to know if it could have had any effect, and perhaps he was better for having been switching, but Erbst still beat him.
I basically like to watch the fights as a would-be-gambler, seeking to spot potential strengths or vulnerabilities in fighters, for the sake of analyzing matchups and predicting how fights play out. I find this quite interesting, but I know it doesn't mean I'm right all the time, or anything like that.
- CDF47G-MMA Rankings
- Location : United States
Posts : 13469
Join date : 2011-12-04
Re: Fighters who constantly switch stances
Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:07 pm
nodogoshi wrote:
- Sowinski-Erbst:
Sowinski was fighting southpaw at the time, and one of the commentators commented on it. He said, 'it's a real treat to see Sowinski fighting southpaw. He's doing that for one because of the boxing, to give Erbst some different looks. And also, I think in order to punish Erbst when he shoots."
I think that Sowinski was trying to counter Erbst's switches by switching himself. But that's often a bad idea. Recently, Terrence Crawford took on the tall, awkward, gangly southpaw, Julius Indongo. Crawford fought southpaw, and dominated, with a knockout in about 5. Teddy Atlas said at the start, "there are different ways to deal with a southpaw, one, fight fire with fire."
However, Crawford is a very special fighter. He is without a doubt one of the most technical active boxers right now in the sport.
Just then while Sosnowski was southpaw, Erbst rushed him with a combination of punches, some landing, got him on the ropes, managed to get his back, and choked him out.
I may be overstepping to say I think Sosnowski should have stuck with orthodox. It's impossible to know if it could have had any effect, and perhaps he was better for having been switching, but Erbst still beat him.
I basically like to watch the fights as a would-be-gambler, seeking to spot potential strengths or vulnerabilities in fighters, for the sake of analyzing matchups and predicting how fights play out. I find this quite interesting, but I know it doesn't mean I'm right all the time, or anything like that.
I might have to check this fight out.
- nodogoshiModerator
- Location : Oregon, USA
Posts : 4754
Join date : 2011-11-15
Re: Fighters who constantly switch stances
Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:08 pm
I'm all about evolution of thought, and I'm one who actually enjoys being proved wrong.
I don't know that I'm going back on what I said per se, it is a matter of 'style' and proficiency, how effective one switches perhaps.
But I thought I'd point out, I was watching some videos of Wing Chun fighting.
I don't entirely understand the rules, it seems like there's an emphasis on straight shots though.
I saw guys switching stances continuously, and very effectively. It was in essentially seemed like just a way of opening up holes or presenting angles.
I'll maybe post some videos if I check them later and see anything good.
I don't know that I'm going back on what I said per se, it is a matter of 'style' and proficiency, how effective one switches perhaps.
But I thought I'd point out, I was watching some videos of Wing Chun fighting.
I don't entirely understand the rules, it seems like there's an emphasis on straight shots though.
I saw guys switching stances continuously, and very effectively. It was in essentially seemed like just a way of opening up holes or presenting angles.
I'll maybe post some videos if I check them later and see anything good.
- CDF47G-MMA Rankings
- Location : United States
Posts : 13469
Join date : 2011-12-04
Re: Fighters who constantly switch stances
Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:24 pm
nodogoshi wrote:I'm all about evolution of thought, and I'm one who actually enjoys being proved wrong.
I don't know that I'm going back on what I said per se, it is a matter of 'style' and proficiency, how effective one switches perhaps.
But I thought I'd point out, I was watching some videos of Wing Chun fighting.
I don't entirely understand the rules, it seems like there's an emphasis on straight shots though.
I saw guys switching stances continuously, and very effectively. It was in essentially seemed like just a way of opening up holes or presenting angles.
I'll maybe post some videos if I check them later and see anything good.
Would be interested in some good videos of that.
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