Fedor's 3 losses. How many fights was he loosing to that point?

He wasn't in at least 2 of them... and that's the point!

Against Bighead, some give Fedor the first round. The whole universe gives Bighead round 2 decisively. Though, as a caveat, it may not have been as decisively as it looked if people aren't looking carefully at what's happening on the ground under Bighead's big bottom.

Even though Fedor was taking a lot of damage on the bottom he slowly continued to improve his position gradually countering all of Bighead's attack. In fact he eventually did this well enough that he ended up out of the mount & side control in a dominant position applying a leg lock when the bell to end the 2nd round ended. Although Fedor took a lot of damage, from a positional perspective he countered everything Big head threw at him and ended up in a dominant position attempting to finish his opponent. Then, he stood up proudly ready to fight.

I really don't get how people can say he's either washed up, or out-dated. 2 flash finish losses in fights he was the aggressor and winning. 1 other loss where he staved off a drawn out very damaging attack but countered everything effectively. Then he finished that fight in a dominant position making a submission attempt. How is all of that combined out-classed, outgunned, pwned, slowed-down, out-evolved, or whatever???

Are you saying he won the second round? Yes he defended but he took a lot more damage, and didnt do any damage in return thus he easily lost the round. The first round imo was like 60-40 for Fedor.

He was competitive in all his losses but he still lost. He went from dominating his opponents to losing to them. Simple as that. Hes still probably skilled enough to potentially win against any HW in the world even now, although there are guys I would put as favorites over him.

At the end of the day what Fedor did was very special and he was the best of his class and the longest to last. Kudos on an amazing career. Maybe he can still rack up a couple more signature wins before he hangs them up. Who knows.

Could not care less about who was winning in a stoppage. Look at the dude in my avatar.

Big K has a lot of supporters who boast his stats when discussing Lennox. I'm simply not the type of person to even recognize the point......not in the bull headed sort of way........I just don't understand how or why that matters.

With Fedor specifically. His getting stopped by Werdum was a shock. Fedor being pinned down by Bigfoot, and having his face smashed in was a shock. Dan Henderson, no shock there. Why? Old Fedor could out roll Werdum. He did not recognize what was happening to him....his was an old lion being fool by a young buck. Old Fedor would never be out muscled by Bigfoot. He's far too slick both on his feet, and on the ground....I'm not saying Fedor's stronger, but that he'd never allowed the fighter to become fringed on strength. By the time Dan came around I knew as long as he played to his strengths and forced his fight Fedor couldn't handle the pressure anymore. Old Fedor made better decisions. He had a better handle on what he was capable of, and what his opponent was capable of....in the moment. Fedor's timing, and reaction speed are considerably lower....I first noticed during the Brett Rogers fight.

Vitali retired Lewis. Everyone knows he would have lost the rematch which is why LL decided to retire rather than take the huge payday. Prior to the fight he was saying he was going to go on for 2 more years. He wanted to comeback but fight someone else besides Vitali. Emmanuel Steward said its only right if you fight him you owe it to him. So he decided to bow out. Its in Stewards book.

StillWill wrote:Are you saying he won the second round? Yes he defended but he took a lot more damage, and didnt do any damage in return thus he easily lost the round. The first round imo was like 60-40 for Fedor.

He was competitive in all his losses but he still lost. He went from dominating his opponents to losing to them. Simple as that. Hes still probably skilled enough to potentially win against any HW in the world even now, although there are guys I would put as favorites over him.

At the end of the day what Fedor did was very special and he was the best of his class and the longest to last. Kudos on an amazing career. Maybe he can still rack up a couple more signature wins before he hangs them up. Who knows.

No I'm not saying he won the second round.

On the Fedor 'being competitive" note, that only applies to the Sliva fight. For the Werdum and Henderson fights he was dominating them for until the final seconds of each fight.

My point is that the whole world to some degree is throwing the baby out with the bath water on Fedor after the losses. None of them proved he still isn't a top-tier striker or grappler. He was winning 2 fights pretty well until they ended suddenly. In the 3rd fight no one was finished nor was there a decision. What they proved is that he not infallible. Not infallible for only seconds in the first two fight and for most of one round in the Bighead fight which Bighead did not beat him technically by KO, submission or decision.

IMO - Fedor is about as on the down side of prime... skill-wise as Barnett, Overeem, Werdum or Silva is. His skills were still good enough to be beating Werdum and Henderson, and to split rounds with Silva getting himself of of a sure death situation to face the bell for the 3rd round.

I just don't get it. I study any training vids of Fedor's I can find over the last couple of years and his striking is technically better than it ever was. Not sure how your gonna surpass the grappling skill of a Combat Sambo multi-world champion and Olympic level Judo player today either. Even watching him now he's still on a different level of grappling & striking than all but 1 or 2 guys in each individual area. Nobody is still better technically combined though. When you add the his big speed advantage that he still has the charts are all in his favor.

marchegiano wrote:Could not care less about who was winning in a stoppage. Look at the dude in my avatar.

Big K has a lot of supporters who boast his stats when discussing Lennox. I'm simply not the type of person to even recognize the point......not in the bull headed sort of way........I just don't understand how or why that matters.

With Fedor specifically. His getting stopped by Werdum was a shock. Fedor being pinned down by Bigfoot, and having his face smashed in was a shock. Dan Henderson, no shock there. Why? Old Fedor could out roll Werdum. He did not recognize what was happening to him....his was an old lion being fool by a young buck. Old Fedor would never be out muscled by Bigfoot. He's far too slick both on his feet, and on the ground....I'm not saying Fedor's stronger, but that he'd never allowed the fighter to become fringed on strength. By the time Dan came around I knew as long as he played to his strengths and forced his fight Fedor couldn't handle the pressure anymore. Old Fedor made better decisions. He had a better handle on what he was capable of, and what his opponent was capable of....in the moment. Fedor's timing, and reaction speed are considerably lower....I first noticed during the Brett Rogers fight.

Often times a flash stoppage, especially such as in the case of Werdum, doesn't tell you anything about the respective abilities of the two fighters. It's called being caught cold. It happens in every combat sport. It's like when guys get KO'd in the 1st round in boxing in their tune up fight. That doesn't mean the opponent was better, it just means they were careless, maybe not warmed up, and got caught with a homerun shot.

Fedor dropped Henderson instances before Hendo stopped him. Fedor dived in for a finish, yet again, and Henderson pulled a very nifty reversal which very few guys could have done (Hendo being a 2x Olympian and immensely experienced wrestler is where he got that move imo, as well as working over the years on grappling in the gym no doubt).

nodogoshi wrote:Fedor dropped Henderson instances before Hendo stopped him. Fedor dived in for a finish, yet again, and Henderson pulled a very nifty reversal which very few guys could have done (Hendo being a 2x Olympian and immensely experienced wrestler is where he got that move imo, as well as working over the years on grappling in the gym no doubt).

Was Fedors fault imo. He didnt secure the position like he should have, it was very sloppy on his part.

His efforts against Bigfoot and Hendo he looked very rushed and sloppy standing as well, brawling instead of boxing. He looked better inhis last two, more technical and refined

StillWill wrote:

nodogoshi wrote:Fedor dropped Henderson instances before Hendo stopped him. Fedor dived in for a finish, yet again, and Henderson pulled a very nifty reversal which very few guys could have done (Hendo being a 2x Olympian and immensely experienced wrestler is where he got that move imo, as well as working over the years on grappling in the gym no doubt).

Was Fedors fault imo. He didnt secure the position like he should have, it was very sloppy on his part.

His efforts against Bigfoot and Hendo he looked very rushed and sloppy standing as well, brawling instead of boxing. He looked better inhis last two, more technical and refined

Yeah I agree. It's arguably similar to how he jumped into Werdum's guard.

StillWill wrote:

He was competitive in all his losses but he still lost. He went from dominating his opponents to losing to them. Simple as that. Hes still probably skilled enough to potentially win against any HW in the world even now, although there are guys I would put as favorites over him.

At the end of the day what Fedor did was very special and he was the best of his class and the longest to last. Kudos on an amazing career. Maybe he can still rack up a couple more signature wins before he hangs them up. Who knows.

Agree with that. Fedor has the skill, and had an amazing career, but he was very different on the fights he lost. Brawling, not following the gameplan, in not the great shape he was. Maybe training only with students, and being a different person now changed his ways, but at least he changed this recently and made 2 great performances where he basically wasn't even touched.

As Dag said, watching him training and teaching, the guy has great technique and is very smart, but at those 3 fights he was just reckless and wanted to finish right away without that very smart and deadly fighting style he used to have. He just lost. I don't get why it's such a big deal when it happens to Fedor, after over 10 years of competition, losing for the first time is no shame. Unfortunately people bash Fedor for it, while the current top 5, if they lose people just don't care.

So, as Barnett and other veterans he still got what it takes, but he stopped in time for a while. It's hard to admit, but even he said that, so that's just it.

BTW StillWill. Klischko vs LL 2 would be awesome. Vitali would win for sure, as he won in the first fight on the scorecards.

nodogoshi wrote:

marchegiano wrote:Could not care less about who was winning in a stoppage. Look at the dude in my avatar.

Big K has a lot of supporters who boast his stats when discussing Lennox. I'm simply not the type of person to even recognize the point......not in the bull headed sort of way........I just don't understand how or why that matters.

With Fedor specifically. His getting stopped by Werdum was a shock. Fedor being pinned down by Bigfoot, and having his face smashed in was a shock. Dan Henderson, no shock there. Why? Old Fedor could out roll Werdum. He did not recognize what was happening to him....his was an old lion being fool by a young buck. Old Fedor would never be out muscled by Bigfoot. He's far too slick both on his feet, and on the ground....I'm not saying Fedor's stronger, but that he'd never allowed the fighter to become fringed on strength. By the time Dan came around I knew as long as he played to his strengths and forced his fight Fedor couldn't handle the pressure anymore. Old Fedor made better decisions. He had a better handle on what he was capable of, and what his opponent was capable of....in the moment. Fedor's timing, and reaction speed are considerably lower....I first noticed during the Brett Rogers fight.

Often times a flash stoppage, especially such as in the case of Werdum, doesn't tell you anything about the respective abilities of the two fighters. It's called being caught cold. It happens in every combat sport. It's like when guys get KO'd in the 1st round in boxing in their tune up fight. That doesn't mean the opponent was better, it just means they were careless, maybe not warmed up, and got caught with a homerun shot.

That's sure true, but isn't really at odds with what I was saying. He got caught. He should not have gotten caught. I don't care what his excuses are for getting caught.....when your actually better you don't get caught. He could be better? Sure, but he wasn't. He got caught. Look at the fella to my left. Never caught. Most of his fights behind on the score cards. Had to catch the superior skilled opponent to win, and he did. Fedor got caught, and I could not care less if it was a Rockesque moment where the op had to Catch Fedor to win.


I dunno why Big K fans always bring that nonsense up. Big K lost to an old fat Lennox, and the fact that Lennox was losing doesn't change that. Lennox Lewis beat Big K out of his prime, and y'all cling to "he refused a rematch" big fucking deal dude. That doesn't mean half the L. I'm not at all saying Lennox would beat him. I'm saying Lennox proved him point.

marchegiano wrote:

nodogoshi wrote:

marchegiano wrote:Could not care less about who was winning in a stoppage. Look at the dude in my avatar.

Big K has a lot of supporters who boast his stats when discussing Lennox. I'm simply not the type of person to even recognize the point......not in the bull headed sort of way........I just don't understand how or why that matters.

With Fedor specifically. His getting stopped by Werdum was a shock. Fedor being pinned down by Bigfoot, and having his face smashed in was a shock. Dan Henderson, no shock there. Why? Old Fedor could out roll Werdum. He did not recognize what was happening to him....his was an old lion being fool by a young buck. Old Fedor would never be out muscled by Bigfoot. He's far too slick both on his feet, and on the ground....I'm not saying Fedor's stronger, but that he'd never allowed the fighter to become fringed on strength. By the time Dan came around I knew as long as he played to his strengths and forced his fight Fedor couldn't handle the pressure anymore. Old Fedor made better decisions. He had a better handle on what he was capable of, and what his opponent was capable of....in the moment. Fedor's timing, and reaction speed are considerably lower....I first noticed during the Brett Rogers fight.

Often times a flash stoppage, especially such as in the case of Werdum, doesn't tell you anything about the respective abilities of the two fighters. It's called being caught cold. It happens in every combat sport. It's like when guys get KO'd in the 1st round in boxing in their tune up fight. That doesn't mean the opponent was better, it just means they were careless, maybe not warmed up, and got caught with a homerun shot.

That's sure true, but isn't really at odds with what I was saying. He got caught. He should not have gotten caught. I don't care what his excuses are for getting caught.....when your actually better you don't get caught. He could be better? Sure, but he wasn't. He got caught. Look at the fella to my left. Never caught. Most of his fights behind on the score cards. Had to catch the superior skilled opponent to win, and he did. Fedor got caught, and I could not care less if it was a Rockesque moment where the op had to Catch Fedor to win.


I dunno why Big K fans always bring that nonsense up. Big K lost to an old fat Lennox, and the fact that Lennox was losing doesn't change that. Lennox Lewis beat Big K out of his prime, and y'all cling to "he refused a rematch" big fucking deal dude. That doesn't mean half the L. I'm not at all saying Lennox would beat him. I'm saying Lennox proved him point.

Actually the Lennox fight doesn't really have anything to do with my point. In that fight, sure Vitali was out working him and landed the better shots, and was surely up on the scorecards, but there was two way traffic in that fight. It also went a total of 6 rounds. Lewis was also out of shape (the heaviest of his career I believe) and Vitali had been a late replacement on like a week's notice. Wasn't Lewis suppose to fight Kirk Johnson or someone before Vitali stepped in? Hard to say what would have happened in a rematch. I actually think that Lewis was sort of figuring Vitali out, hence why he started to land his good shots in about the 4th round. Vitali surely would have come hard in a rematch, but you can bet that Lennox also would have come in shape, sort of like after the loss to Rahman (and unlike in the first fight with Vitali).

That's not really the sort of situation I was talking about at all though. It's not a perfect comparison, but I've seen guys come out on Friday night fights, contenders against a no hoper, and get KO'd in the first round. I remember seeing one such fight where a guy sort of laid stationary near the ropes, and the opponent did a little dip move to the right and threw a left hook which went barely inside the dude's gloves, catching him on the chin and knocking him out cold. This was literally in a tune up fight and was on paper a complete mismatch. The guy made a very careless mistake, underestimated his opponent, and probably wasn't yet loose and therefore more susceptible to the KO to boot.

Werdum is a worldclass fighter so the analogy only goes so far, but it is far more in line with what I meant when I talked about Fedor being essentially caught cold. Not only is it a case of making a careless mistake, it is also a result of not taking the time to feel out and adjust to your opponent.

But where it comes to the fight result itself, I certainly agree that to the victors go the spoils, and nothing should be taken away from Werdum, who went out there and won the fight playing his own game, and proved to be the better man that night. In so doing, he stopped the legendary run of Fedor and he deserves all due credit for his accomplishment. No one can say how the fight would have ended up if Fedor hadn't dived into the guard in the early juncture, or how a rematch would go, we can just speculate.

All Im saying is


BTW that was Vitalis first fight on the world level. He was better with more experience. Lewis didnt retire until Vitali destroyed Kirk Johnson in two rounds and then called him out.

It was a cut stoppage its not as if he got knocked out.

George Foreman: "Vitali was winning the fight. Lewis got lucky. There has to be a rematch!"

Jim Lampley: "A lucky escape for Lewis who was clearly losing the fight"



Klitschko EVT06 Lewis

StillWill wrote:All Im saying is


BTW that was Vitalis first fight on the world level. He was better with more experience. Lewis didnt retire until Vitali destroyed Kirk Johnson in two rounds and then called him out.

It was a cut stoppage its not as if he got knocked out.

George Foreman: "Vitali was winning the fight. Lewis got lucky. There has to be a rematch!"

Jim Lampley: "A lucky escape for Lewis who was clearly losing the fight"



Klitschko EVT06 Lewis

We all know the story already, Will.

But yet, people will always still have to agree to disagree on certain things.

It might have been Vitali's first fight on the world level, but even an out of shape and past his prime Lewis was the best opponent that Vitali has ever faced. It isn't his fault that the Heavyweight division is weak, but that's still just the way it is.

Can't say I wouldn't have liked to see the rematch either, but it was Lennox's decision, and I can't argue with it. I'd rather see a guy go out on top than hang on too long. If it's about hypothetical arguments though, I see no way that a Prime Lewis doesn't destroy either Klitschko. And I say that as someone who thinks that Lennox would've had an excellent chance in a rematch (I already stated why I think so in my prior post), but he decided to hang up the gloves and walk away.

I wouldn't say Lennox was out of his prime. Sure, he was in the twilight of his career but even out of shape, he was still on top of his game.

lol, I didn't mean to make this about Lennox. I meant to make it about feeling the momentum, and knowing when you are and are not safe. Fedor has lost that fighter's sense. On the upper tier of comp he's consistently fighting like he's safe when he isn't, and paying for it. On the lower end there's not enough pressure/talent for Fedor to get in trouble.

It's not about where Big K was winning or would win or could win or shoulda won. It's about presence of mind, and tactics. It you don't think the stoppage by cuts was in the back of both fighter's minds your truly a naive person. Big K's gambit at that point was to keep himself safe exacerbating his cuts, and stay ahead on the points. Lennox's game was to one those cuts even more or go for a KO. Obviously Big K failed to not allow his face look like T-1000 at the end of T2. That's more than getting lucky. That's edging out a damn good fight. I have that fight iffen anyone want it gimme a PM.

Read the article on Walcott-Rocky 1 in the classic boxing thread by Fisticuffa. Same story. Walcott only had to make a dec of it, and Rocco had to get that KO. Both guys knew that, and Joe was dead in the middle of is shoulder shifting sucker punch. He one he uses to break corners, and had dropped Rocco early in the fight. Wallcott didn't get hit because he was unlucky. Rocky didn't Suzie-Q out of luck. There was a expert amount of misdirection and power being thrown around in those few seconds.

Vital was wrong, Walcott was wrong, Fedor was wrong.....that's why they lost their fights.....they looked at the situation, and recognized it to be something it wasn't. The Victor looked at the situation correctly.

It doesn't matter if you lost by an inch or you lost by a mile, he lost.

He wasn't dominating Werdum, the fight lasted a little over a minute, Fedor 'knocked down' Werdum, and spent 20 seconds or so in a triangle. He wasn't dominating Henderson either, the two came out throwing punches, the most significant shot of the fight before the KO was a left hook by Henderson followed by cage control. Fedor was losing the round.

Regardless of whether or not he was being competitive, he lost in the first round. Neither the Hendo or Werdum fights were exactly Manhoef/Lawler, Fedor got beaten, and beaten rather convincingly, by both fighters. Would he beat Werdum if they fought again? I don't know, but he'd be less stupid than jumping into Werdum's guard and swinging punches like an idiot.

Fedor is past his prime, and anyone saying otherwise is kidding themselves. He still has skills, no doubt, but mentally he isn't there anymore. Fedor's time in the spotlight is over, move on.

Misowaman wrote:
Fedor is past his prime, and anyone saying otherwise is kidding themselves. He still has skills, no doubt, but mentally he isn't there anymore. Fedor's time in the spotlight is over, move on.

That's true. Nobody would still believe he's at his peak, you could obviously see that in these fights. But, as his fans, people still want to watch him. We can't just "move on". He changed his game so we still want to watch him. As with any other fighter if they are healthy and can continue fighting and are open to changes, it's fine.

there's still wanting to watch him, and still supporting him, I recognize that, as I do both.

But then there's posters like Dagwood who tries to make it seem like every loss he ever had was a fluke, and that Fedor is still the same fighter, he's just had a bad run. Here's the thing; he's not the same fighter, and he hasn't been for years. Fedor was the best because he not only had the best skillset, he had the drive and determination to be the best, and that determination allowed him to push his skills further.

I love Fedor, but there is a time where, yes, you do have to move on from the notion that a fighter can be at the top of the sport. My favourite fighter ever is Chuck Liddell, when he lost, I wanted to throw up, it hit me hard every single time, but there was a time where I had to accept that Chuck's day at the top was done. Fedor's time at the top is done.

When I say move on, I don't mean that you should move on from supporting him, I mean move on from the notion that he can be the best fighter in the world again.