No Holds Barred: Antonio Graceffo, the Brooklyn Monk, on Wrestling and China

On this edition of No Holds Barred, host Eddie Goldman once again spoke with the writer, web show host, MMA fighter, and wrestler, Antonio Graceffo.

Born in Brooklyn, known as the "Brooklyn Monk", and raised in Tennessee, he is in the process of completing his Ph.D. at Shanghai University of Sport in Shanghai, China, and is a member of the traditional wrestling (Shuai Jiao) team there.

We spoke with him Thursday in New York while he was in town.

"My Ph.D. thesis topic is comparing Chinese traditional wrestling with Western wrestling," he said. "My professors want me to write about history, culture, rules, competition, techniques, training, all different aspects. And they sort of expanded that and they wanted me to write a lot about Greece and Rome for some reason, but that led me to writing now about Pankration: ancient Greek wrestling, and then Pankration, and then Pankration into the Roman era, which becomes like the gladiators. So actually it becomes very interesting, a lot of fun for me to write it."

He continued, "But then it also means it's expanded, the types of things that I need to go do in addition to my reading, that I need to go experience, catch wrestling for example. And they also want me to write about pro wrestling. And of course as soon as you include pro wrestling as sort of a modern evolution of wrestling, if you want to call it that, and in a way, the modern pro wrestling is the gladiatorial games of the Romans."

Thus, on this trip back to New York, he sampled training in several different styles. He attended a training session in catch wrestling with Sambo Steve Koepfer at New York Combat Sambo, as well as one in judo at Long Island Judo with Sensei Gary Rasanen, and even met with a group which performs the staged pro wrestling.

We also discussed the status of wrestling and grappling in China, how there is not now a large feeder system there on the amateur and youth levels of wrestling, how children in regular schools do not play sports, why it would be difficult for catch wrestling to succeed in China at present, his future plans, and much, much more.  

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Thanks, Eddie Goldman
EddieGoldman.com

My wife and I had a laugh at his Chinese at the beginning.  "I am (nig-guh) an American foreign student!  I am (nig-guh) in New York with (nig-guh) Eddie Goldman No Holds Barred!"

My experience with the Chinese and sports is very different from what he is saying.  They do have amateur high school teams, and lots of Chinese students take part in extra-curricular activities.  Basketball courts are everywhere and are packed in the evenings.  
The Muay Thai gym I was at had plenty of hobbyists, just students with no ambition of competing; training just for the sake of training.  

[I want to add somewhere, as an aside and semi-rant that every white guy in China wants to be the "China expert", myself included.  The problem is China is quickly changing and also very different from place to place, it is hard to make rules and generalizations and I try to refrain from that myself. So what he had to say is probably true from his experience and knowledge, but does not line up entirely with my experience and knowledge.]

Two of the Muay Thai competitors had cross trained in ju-jutsu.  Both had trained in Shanghai where the Brooklyn Monk was at (I was in Hangzhou).  But both, stated that it is nigh impossible to find such training anywhere else.  

So what Brooklyn Monk was saying about no amateurs is true and not.  When he says you have to already be a pro to compete, I think that is largely true as a rule.  Not because there are no amateur leagues and hobbyists, but because there are too many sports schools with people training in the sport from birth to compete against.

Hamilcar wrote:My wife and I had a laugh at his Chinese at the beginning.  "I am (nig-guh) an American foreign student!  I am (nig-guh) in New York with (nig-guh) Eddie Goldman No Holds Barred!"

My experience with the Chinese and sports is very different from what he is saying.  They do have amateur high school teams, and lots of Chinese students take part in extra-curricular activities.  Basketball courts are everywhere and are packed in the evenings.  
The Muay Thai gym I was at had plenty of hobbyists, just students with no ambition of competing; training just for the sake of training.  

[I want to add somewhere, as an aside and semi-rant that every white guy in China wants to be the "China expert", myself included.  The problem is China is quickly changing and also very different from place to place, it is hard to make rules and generalizations and I try to refrain from that myself. So what he had to say is probably true from his experience and knowledge, but does not line up entirely with my experience and knowledge.]

Two of the Muay Thai competitors had cross trained in ju-jutsu.  Both had trained in Shanghai where the Brooklyn Monk was at (I was in Hangzhou).  But both, stated that it is nigh impossible to find such training anywhere else.  

So what Brooklyn Monk was saying about no amateurs is true and not.  When he says you have to already be a pro to compete, I think that is largely true as a rule.  Not because there are no amateur leagues and hobbyists, but because there are too many sports schools with people training in the sport from birth to compete against.

I'll be in China in about 10 days time.

I'll have to send in my expert report after I get there.

Just joking.

I hear what you are saying though, and good comments.

This is cringeworthy listening. Sweeping cultural stereotypes left and right. The American sports scene constantly held up as a model which must be duplicated, as a basic standard. A guy writing a dissertation on wrestling being constantly educated on very basic facts (Goldman is an expert, but he should know basic facts, which I know). Complete lack of anything but superficial understanding of the country and culture (typical of many Americans on an extended vacation. It's a racist mindset, actually).

Horrible show. Sorry.

The only saving grace was Eddie Goldman, who is always worth listening to.

Really, I wish he would have just talked about Chinese wrestling.  I find it interesting that it appears to be completely absent from Chinese culture.  You don't see it in their movies or tv shows and they don't appear to have any wrestling legends or heroes.

It's not like in Western culture where you can find wrestling in ancient legends and culture (the wrestling matches in the Illiad and even jacob wrestling with God in the Bible).  Rather, the hero's of their old stories would either fight straight up gong fu matches or test themselves in other ways.  

So I am curious how shuai jiao is billed today in China.  Do the Chinese see themselves as partaking in something borowed from Western culture, or does it in fact have ancient roots in China?

Hamilcar wrote:Really, I wish he would have just talked about Chinese wrestling.  I find it interesting that it appears to be completely absent from Chinese culture.  You don't see it in their movies or tv shows and they don't appear to have any wrestling legends or heroes.

It's not like in Western culture where you can find wrestling in ancient legends and culture (the wrestling matches in the Illiad and even jacob wrestling with God in the Bible).  Rather, the hero's of their old stories would either fight straight up gong fu matches or test themselves in other ways.  

So I am curious how shui jiao is billed today in China.  Do the Chinese see themselves as partaking in something borowed from Western culture, or does it in fact have ancient roots in China?  

I do have a textbook on a Chinese submission wrestling style. The textbook is titled 'Chinese Fast Wrestling for Fighting.'

nodogoshi wrote:

I do have a textbook on a Chinese submission wrestling style. The textbook is titled 'Chinese Fast Wrestling for Fighting.'

Does it make links to an ancient style? I wouldn't doubt that Chinese did some form of wrestling in their long history. I just have yet to see any mention of it.

Okay, I stopped being lazy and looked it up on wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuai_jiao#History
According to wikipedia there was some ancient wrestling. But, who knows how much of that was preserved. And further, it does not appear to have ingrained itself in the culture like wrestling has here.
Too, so many martial arts pretend or make arbitrary links to an ancient past, when in fact they are completely 20th century inventions. Shuia Jiao was created in 1923.