Forum fun with FKA and the UFC lawsuit

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ufc lawsuit thread

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http://www.cohenmilstein.com/media/pnc/5/media.1675.pdf

Also aside from already announced participants 2 new fighters joined the lawsuit.....

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2014/12/23/7436881/two-more-fighters-are-suing-the-ufc


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http://www.cohenmilstein.com/media/pnc/5/media.1675.pdf
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FKA
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Click link then it goes to my friends forum click link again and it will download the full legal file.

I swear this is a must read to fully understand the scape of things.

Ufc isnt getting out of this and more people are joining the suit as the days go by.

This isnt just about fighter pay its about monopolies and it shows examples of dana being an arrogant ass its absolutely HILARIOUS to see all his dumb tweets and posts come back to haunt him.

Ufc going to be losing millions possibly hundreds of millions while its already experiencing low ppv buys and viewer ratings.


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FlashyG
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This lawsuit would had a much greater chance of being winnable a few years ago when the UFC bought out Strikeforce, and Bellator was in its infancy

Right now they have a better competitor in Bellator than they have since PRIDE died.

Comparatively the UFC's "Monopoly" is far less of one than the one the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL own in their respective sports.
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Difference is in ALL of those sports they are actually paid ...down to the bench warmers.

They also dont completely blackball an nfl player if he goes and say plays cfl.....or erase hall of famers because of personal vendetta.....

What zuffa has been doing is a giant scheme going back to how ufc even got bought by the fertittas in the first place.
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Poor_Franklin
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wow you sure do feel passionately about this
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Posted by Poor_Franklin

wow you sure do feel passionately about this




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FKA
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Yes Iam.

I was a zuffa supporter long ago....then through the years ive been seeing signs of behind the scenes BS i didnt like.

It was obvious with the scorched earth policy they used on competitors and how dana being the face of the company and just how completely unprofessional he is and makes the sport look.

Then we can get into how ufc treats fghters and ex fighters hall of famers....,,

Any MMA fan would care alot about how the fighters are treated and the direction of the sport we love.

The sport is not called UFC

I love the fighters in the UFC (except new no names)but politically im completely against them.

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Posted by FKA

Yes Iam.

I was a huge zuffa supporter....then through the years ive been seeing signs of behind the scenes BS i didnt like.

It was obvious with the scorched earth policy they used on competitors and how dana being the face of the company and just how completely unprofessional he is and makes the sport look.

Then we can get into how ufc treats fghters and ex fighters hall of famers....,,

Any MMA fan would care alot about how the fighters are treated and the direction of the sport we love.

The sport is not called UFC and dana whiye is a shit smear all over the good name of mma.

I love the fighters in the UFC (except new no names)but politically im completely against them.



You love the fighters in the UFC, except new no names? Let me borrow your crystal ball, those no name were once named dos anjos, mighty mouse, list goes on.
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Lol ....

Im talking about half the new people you see on any of the watered down fight nights.

Ufc has a high number of very good prospects especially of russian or Dagestan lineage:)

But they also employ a growing number of people who clearly do not belong.

In what's considered to be the upper echelon of combat sports youd think you would have nothing but proven killers which is not the case.

Im actually in the middle of a talent breakdown I'll be sure to post when iys done to further discuss my point.
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So I read all 36 pages in their entirety and must say that they are saying a lot of the same things that I've heard before...not all that damning IMO...I need to see and hear the evidence where they directly effort ed themselves to be a Monopoly and to see where this lays legally considering it's a sport and a business at the same time. I think if things go your way (at least the way your talking) the UFC will be disbanned. I promise you that will absolutely spell the death of MMA, it will be once again reduced to backyard bar fights and bullshit Japanese freak fights. Be careful what you wish for is all I'm saying. The UFC has without question been the best thing that has ever happened in the sport. A fighter's union makes so much more sense than a few disgruntled assholes destroying the entire sport by taking down the lead organization because they put on boring ass fights, fell short in their title runs, and got caught doping.
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I absolutely disagree....

If ufc is disbanded it would open the sport up to actually be treated like a sport.

You see the ufc is literally THE ONLY ORG unwilling to fighter share or copromote tournaments.

If thats gone we could see whst mma really should be about.....the fighterd,the fans,and proving who is the best in the world.

Like ive stated before mma should operate like the world cup with all the major players globally coming together every year or 2 for a world tournament of epic proportions.

Creating major buzz worldwide producing excellent fights and goving global exposure to fighters that would otherwise go unseen by a large population of the mma world.

Ufc trying to separate itself and even worse control the fighters down to image licensing and recently who can even sponsor guys is not the right direction.

Ufc is bloated full of guys who dont belong just to fill all the unnecessary WATERED down cards they put on.with the addition of wmma which isnt deep in any division its just escalated into more and more cards that are pretty lame.

By flooding the market with sub par cards its lowered the overall interest in the sport.people see ufc as the brand representing mma and if its not putting on good quality its ruining everything.
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Without reading any of that, I've seen and heard enough from Dana to know he's full of shit. Its a shame he's only in it to make a buck and expand his brands name. He's certainly not in it for the sport of mma.
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Well I disagree...I do not want to see 75 new organizations popping up across the world putting on horrible mismatches while claiming that their champion is the best but not television it due to lack of revenue and then paying it's fighters $1500...it was called the dark ages of MMA for a reason. Wandy got paid less than $500 for an untelevised and bare knuckles fighting organization several times. Without medical insurance, without corporate sponsorship money being invested. He has a proper retirement and a gym in both Brazil and the US now all thanks to the UFC. Your understandable dislike for Dana White is blinding you to the simple fact that without the UFC and it's casual fans, who only know Weidman as that one guy that beat Anderson Silva twice, the sport will disappear and all these guys cursing the UFC will be realizing they made a mistake only too late to do shit about it. I hope they lose horribly and get ridiculed for the rest of their lives.
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Ufc is not the end all be all of mma its actually defacing the name of mma and blatantly screwing the fighters...

There wont be 75 orgs it will allow lets say bellator,wsof,titanfc,m1,onefc access to name talent boosting the overall appeal of mma globally.

Ufc cant even get into mainland china there office's literally just shut down meanwhie M1 just signed a deal to put on 6 shows in china.

Bellator may still carry a bit of a b league vibe to some people but viacom has billions its pockets are much deeper then zuffa.

Ufc made its bed and i for one have been pointing it out for years so for me its get out the marshmallows and toast them on the flaming carcass of dana white(god willing)

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Yeah...ok...because Aoki outside of Bellator fights entertaining competition. Just look at Bellator ' s 5 good fighters man, all in the same wt class doing to circle of champions. WSOF is a retirement league, it's all a bunch of crap in comparison. If you hate it so much then why watch...I don't watch boxing because it's gotten too shady. Too many worthless belts, too many top fighters competing against cans, top competition not in the same organization so fights being talked about instead of being watched. I like a big organization that everyone is fighting to be a part of and be the champ of, I like fights that I want to see being televised in a manner so that I can actually view them, I like fighters having access to real no shit big time sponsors like Nike Reebok Burger King and Budweiser, I like the fact that the UFC has created the only MMA Millionaires ever. But some like small shows that pay cheap, have no benefits or retirement possibilities, poor match ups due to small rosters and no viewers due to lack of marketing and sponsors. To each their own.
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Yeah because tito and bonnar getting paid more for a fight on free tv then lawler and hendricks did for a title fight on ppv clearly shows how lucrative it is to be a ufc champ...

Legit sponsors?...you mean the legit money little sponsors (NOW KILLED OFF)would pay lesser known guys to get their brand out there.

Ufc got a deal with reebok ...dana decreased the size of media who rank fighters to control pay even further.

You've sadly been misinformed...fighters will make even less money if you arent top 10 now.

Bellator has far more then 4 good fighters in fact that statement is laughable...

Joe soto just challenged for a title and was ousted as bellator champ ages ago.

Also zak makovsky has been fairing very well in ufc.

Thats just guys who left ...just for you i will finish my Bellator talent breakdown to discuss further this topic.
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When it comes down to it

No one is forcing these fighters to sign or resign with the ufc. They don't have a gun to their head.

They wanna fight the best and be the best. Well the best organization is ufc.


If they have the money to buy other organizations
Those organizations don't have to sell to Zuffa. But they do cause Zuffa pays the most.

I don't need to see 8 or 9 different organization.
I just want one that is th best.


Wwe is no different from ufc
They buy wcw ecw. They buy out their competitors too
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Bantamweights

Eduardo Dantas,Marcos Galvao,luis Nogueira,Joe Warren,Rafael Silva

Featherweights

Pat Curran,Patricio Freire,Daniel Strauss,Daniel Weichel,Fabricio Guerrero,Goiti Yamauchi,bubba jenkins,georgi kharikanyan,Diego Nunes

Lightweight

Michael Chandler,Marcin Held,Patricky Freire,Will Brooks,Alexander Sarnavsky,

Welterweight

Douglas Lima,Andrey Koreshkov,karl amoussou,Paul bradley,michael page,adam mcdonough

Middleweight

Alexander shlemeko,mikkel parlo,brandon halsey,

Light heavyweight

Emmanuel Newton,king mo,liam mcgeary,linton vassell,volkan oezdamir,phelipe lins,

Heavyweight
Vitaly Minakov,Blagoi Ivanov,Alexander Volkov,javy ayala,augusto sukai,Dmitry Sasnovsky,james thompson,

Thats just off the top of my head bro......


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Actually fighters are FORCED to sign with ufc...

Managers and camps say only way to make a living is sign to ufc for exposure ,money,and sponsors...

Well if being on the prelims of a ufc pass show making 8000 dollars is your dream come true by all means sign away,

Many young guys dont read shit just thinking being in ufc is a life changer.....WRONG.

unless your eddie alvarez or a big name already you aint getting shit especially now after uniform deal.


Ufc has been manipulating fighters,managers,and fans to think ufc is the only option.....

Meanwhile Onefc,Bellator,m1 are paying guys like Ben Askren more then he'd ever make in the ufc.

But luckily as of late more people are figuring out the truth and ufc is hemorrhaging money at every turn,Theres a reason thier credit rank was dropped now the impending lawsuit......


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And the UFC/WWE comparison isn't very good.

The best era of pro wrestling is during the WWE/WCW war. For a wrestling fan it was magifacent.
Both orgs did whatever they could to get ratings. WWE did it with storylines and WCW did it by buying every big name wrestlers they could. Plus, if it wasn't for ECW's hardcoreness there wouldn't been an attitude era.

Not to mention WWE is shit now


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Posted by FKA

Actually fighters are FORCED to sign with ufc...

Managers and camps say only way to make a living is sign to ufc for exposure ,money,and sponsors...

Well if being on the prelims of a ufc pass show making 8000 dollars is your dream come true by all means sign away,

Many young guys dont read shit just thinking being in ufc is a life changer.....WRONG.

unless your eddie alvarez or a big name already you aint getting shit especially now after uniform deal.


Ufc has been manipulating fighters,managers,and fans to think ufc is the only option.....

Meanwhile Onefc,Bellator,m1 are paying guys like Ben Askren more then he'd ever make in the ufc.

But luckily as of late more people are figuring out the truth and ufc is hemorrhaging money at every turn,Theres a reason thier credit rank was dropped now the impending lawsuit......





Where are the sources or stats for what M1, OneFC or other orgs are paying their fighters, and im not talking about Ben Askren but prelim fighters?
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Posted by Shawn91111

Posted by FKA

Actually fighters are FORCED to sign with ufc...

Managers and camps say only way to make a living is sign to ufc for exposure ,money,and sponsors...

Well if being on the prelims of a ufc pass show making 8000 dollars is your dream come true by all means sign away,

Many young guys dont read shit just thinking being in ufc is a life changer.....WRONG.

unless your eddie alvarez or a big name already you aint getting shit especially now after uniform deal.


Ufc has been manipulating fighters,managers,and fans to think ufc is the only option.....

Meanwhile Onefc,Bellator,m1 are paying guys like Ben Askren more then he'd ever make in the ufc.

But luckily as of late more people are figuring out the truth and ufc is hemorrhaging money at every turn,Theres a reason thier credit rank was dropped now the impending lawsuit......





Where are the sources or stats for what M1, OneFC or other orgs are paying their fighters, and im not talking about Ben Askren but prelim fighters?
the piece of information you are asking for is irrelevant to the point he was originally trying to make.

His point was that Ben Askren is making more money than he would if he were in the UFC WHILE ALSO BEING NOT AS BIG A NAME AS SOME OF THE TOP PAID GUYS IN THE UFC.

Pretty much pointed out that just because you aren't a huge recognizable name, like say Jon Jones, or Anderson Silva, you can still make good money as a fighter OUTSIDE of the UFC
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Shawn91111
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Posted by george112

Posted by Shawn91111

Posted by FKA

Actually fighters are FORCED to sign with ufc...

Managers and camps say only way to make a living is sign to ufc for exposure ,money,and sponsors...

Well if being on the prelims of a ufc pass show making 8000 dollars is your dream come true by all means sign away,

Many young guys dont read shit just thinking being in ufc is a life changer.....WRONG.

unless your eddie alvarez or a big name already you aint getting shit especially now after uniform deal.


Ufc has been manipulating fighters,managers,and fans to think ufc is the only option.....

Meanwhile Onefc,Bellator,m1 are paying guys like Ben Askren more then he'd ever make in the ufc.

But luckily as of late more people are figuring out the truth and ufc is hemorrhaging money at every turn,Theres a reason thier credit rank was dropped now the impending lawsuit......





Where are the sources or stats for what M1, OneFC or other orgs are paying their fighters, and im not talking about Ben Askren but prelim fighters?
the piece of information you are asking for is irrelevant to the point he was originally trying to make.

His point was that Ben Askren is making more money than he would if he were in the UFC WHILE ALSO BEING NOT AS BIG A NAME AS SOME OF THE TOP PAID GUYS IN THE UFC.

Pretty much pointed out that just because you aren't a huge recognizable name, like say Jon Jones, or Anderson Silva, you can still make good money as a fighter OUTSIDE of the UFC



Who says its irrelevant? You? Him?

Where is Askren's contract numbers on his OneFC deal and what he would make in the UFC?
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On lovely another how evil the UFC is topic started by FKA. I thought these type of topics died with pride. Why all this hate for the UFC when truth is MMA is the USA most likely wouldn't be where it is today without the UFC. There would most likely never have been a Strike Force, Bellator, Affliction, Invicta FC, or lot of the other orgs. A lot of these other orgs died off because of many reason but not one of them was the UFC.

Now don't get me wrong the UFC just like any company can and should improve. They have made some mistakes just like every company does. But anyone saying MMA would be better off without the UFC either is clueless about the history of the sport in the US or has a blatant bias against the UFC. There is a total of 5 hole fighters signed up so far and the only one that has a legal leg to stand on for a case is Le and that leg has nothing to do with this case.



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Ufc could have been run much cleaner and nore with intentions to treat mma like a sport instead of a business....

The very way it was bought and resanctioned by lorenzo was shady...

Without blasting a page full of text i will say this....

The ufc hides alot of the true history....read up and you will have no choice but to think they are scum.


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Oh and for the pay situation.....

Ufc sets the tone on pay......they should have been upping numbers ages ago ....instead they kill competition and limit fighters options to make a living.....

Competition creates lucrative markets for fighters and companys alike.....best numbers in mma were when they had a big rival like PRIDE or STRIKEFORCE

Guys like gilbert melendez and rampage have shown testing the market equals better pay.....somethin the ufc does not like.
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Ufc credit downgraded,their product is. Over saturating the market causing a plateau in interest its obvious in buys and overall money coming in.

The ufc answer is raise ppv prices,increase the amount of shows and keep further bloating the roster and lessening overall quality to keep up with show schedule....


If this is the vision you support feel free but im for stacking cards.......
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Posted by FKA

Oh and for the pay situation.....

Ufc sets the tone on pay......they should have been upping numbers ages ago ....instead they kill competition and limit fighters options to make a living.....

Competition creates lucrative markets for fighters and companys alike.....best numbers in mma were when they had a big rival like PRIDE or STRIKEFORCE

Guys like gilbert melendez and rampage have shown testing the market equals better pay.....somethin the ufc does not like.


What numbers were best when PRIDE and Strikeforce were around?

Neither of those companies were making money, both were losing so much that they were begging to be bought out. Even the UFC was making far less than they are today.

Fighter pay wasn't any better, TV ratings were worse, there were fewer networks airing MMA at all and the sport was unsanctioned in most of the continent.

Without the UFC, Bellator wouldn't exist, nor would almost any of the regional MMA organizations. This website wouldn't exist nor would many of other sites dedicated to the sport.

You keep repeating the mantra that the UFC should treat MMA like a sport not a business but you fail to recognize that sports are a business.

Do you really think if the UFC shut its doors tomorrow that fighter pay would improve?
or that Viacom is going to be the white knight that comes in and all of a sudden turns MMA into a utopia?

Seriously the idea that a massive corporation is going to take MMA and make it less businesslike is possibly the most laughable thing I've ever read here and a guy compared the UFC to the Nazi's yesterday.


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With the amount of shows the ufc does
Ppv
Merchandise

Fox deal.


Yes ufc fighters should get paid way more.

I do think you could knock off 100 fighters off that roster and still have the amount of shows per year.

Who the fuck wants to fight twice a year for 15 k each
When you could fight 4 times a year cause the decrease in fighters.

This whole global expansion has watered down the cards and the ppv portions.
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george112
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Posted by FlashyG

Posted by FKA

Oh and for the pay situation.....

Ufc sets the tone on pay......they should have been upping numbers ages ago ....instead they kill competition and limit fighters options to make a living.....

Competition creates lucrative markets for fighters and companys alike.....best numbers in mma were when they had a big rival like PRIDE or STRIKEFORCE

Guys like gilbert melendez and rampage have shown testing the market equals better pay.....somethin the ufc does not like.


What numbers were best when PRIDE and Strikeforce were around?

Neither of those companies were making money, both were losing so much that they were begging to be bought out. Even the UFC was making far less than they are today.

Fighter pay wasn't any better, TV ratings were worse, there were fewer networks airing MMA at all and the sport was unsanctioned in most of the continent.

Without the UFC, Bellator wouldn't exist, nor would almost any of the regional MMA organizations. This website wouldn't exist nor would many of other sites dedicated to the sport.

You keep repeating the mantra that the UFC should treat MMA like a sport not a business but you fail to recognize that sports are a business.

Do you really think if the UFC shut its doors tomorrow that fighter pay would improve?
or that Viacom is going to be the white knight that comes in and all of a sudden turns MMA into a utopia?

Seriously the idea that a massive corporation is going to take MMA and make it less businesslike is possibly the most laughable thing I've ever read here and a guy compared the UFC to the Nazi's yesterday.





To ignore the fact that the UFC has come along and tried to transform itself into an NBA, NFL, MLB type of operation WHILE at the same time not paying its fighters enough is downright bias TOWARDS the UFC.

Do fans really care at the end of the day what Org someone is in? No not at all as long as the fights are awesome and they get to see a name the recognized once in a while. Thats how people make a name for themselves.

What the UFC has done is make it very difficult to fight outside of their org and make a decent enough living.


Its not even a hard concept to understand, y'all are just making it difficult for FKA because he has come in here and spoken against the UFC . Like I have said in previous threads, the UFC nutthugging is getting out of control. Like seriously.

Take a look at this site back in the day when I joined, the site that you yourself say was the brain child of the UFC, and tell me that Pride wasn't getting a lot more attention then as far as hardcore fans go.

Pride was putting on STACKED shows. I mean CONSISTENTLY.

It bothers me, like really bothers me, when someone says the sport wouldn't be what it is today if it wasn't for the UFC. To say that one would have to ignore just how many HUGE STARS came from SOMEWHERE ELSE and that they were still big in those other Orgs.

The fact of the matter is. The UFC is NOT the NFL, NBA, MLB, etc… and they never will be as long as Dana White is running the show.

The Major leagues I mentioned earlier are run by respectable individuals who don't act like a complete ass hat. They don't bad mouth the very people playing in their leagues. They don't hold personal vendettas against players. They don't act hard either. Dana though? Yeah I don't even have to go into that.

And its funny, I posted a long time ago that Dana's attitude would eventually catch up to him.

These dudes have a background in gambling. More specifically casinos. Do you know how much lobbying power they probably (most likely) possess? An astronomical amount I am guessing. The lawsuit makes absolute sense and it will cause some ripples and changes just watch. No wonder other orgs can't get a strong enough foothold to actually be on par with the UFC. :rolls eyes:


In the end, I want to see super fights. I don't care about the bullshit ranking system. I want to watch fights where the likelihood of a KO or Sub is greater. I want to see stacked cards. NOT watered down free cards, NOT PPVs with a couple big names, NOT WMMA (sorry girls, you have like ONE star),
Last edited 12/30/14 12:14PM server time by george112
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prozacnation1978
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I tried watching wsof and Bellator

Strike force
Elite xc
Pride.


Ufc is the best.
Best to watch. I enjoy it by far the most.
I want all the fighters to be in the ufc. Give me a reason not to watch Bellator or wsof anymore.

If the ufc ever folded. I think I would easily become a casual fan of mma. And eventually I think I would stop watching. I wouldn't be going to events anymore.
Stop following the fighters. Definitely you wouldn't see me on the play ground as much at all.

Ufc means a lot in my life.
Gave me a reason to take trips. Travel. I never did that eve before. Never took time off work.
Gave me passion and something to look forward to at the end of the week or month. I don't want it to end.
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FKA
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George........YOUR TRULY AN OG

Ufc wouldnt be around if it wasnt for the SEG ERA UFC which they stole.

The ufc that is today was founded on dirtbag morals and hasnt changed.

Prozak is completely righy the ufc could shave a large portion of their current roster and make WAY better cards.....

The ufc has no fucking clue what they are doing ....they are FLOODING the market with a shit product.....AND for the life of them cant get a foothold in china or russia.

Ufc is driving this sport straight into the ground......

They get mma on fox and espn get official rankings and market their product as on par with other major sports ....but they aren't making real attempts at legitimizing the sport.

M-1 in affiliation with wammaa is currently working in russia trying to get mma into the olympics.

Thry have had full amateur and professional tournaments with like 25 countries represented.

Ufc cant even get legalized in newyork....

Bellator is the one who patented glove technology with everlast that reduce hand injury by 60%......

Any person who takes the time to actually read first hand all the ACTUAL events that took place from the time lorenzo dirtbagged SEG UFC up until today....

Cannot support what is and has been going on.....UFC is not the end all be all of MMA.

Pride shit all over the ufc for ages until shady yakuza bs........ufc will fall much the same with mafia ties and people starting not to be scared speaking out against zuffa.

I mean really journalists who ask the wrong questions are black balled,fighters like frank shamrock erased from ufc hof because personnel vendetta.......

They literally are a sinking ship.....and i couldn't be happier.


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FKA
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I enjoy mma from all over the globe most fans only watch north American mma so they dont appreciate anything else.....

Ufcs production is bad.....fighters enter from a rathole......i prefer pride/strikeforce/bellator ramp walkouts with a big monitor and fireworks.

Ufc overall appeal for me is down.....half the cards are so watered down i rarely watch the prelims anymore or even anything but main and co main.

I was massive ufc fan....,,but whats there to get excited about.....

A bunch of 125ers or 115lb woman???

Ufc is all about the next big hype.....

Even if you have to buy an entire watered down division to have one star to promote.

I just cant get behind their business model because its fucking retarded.
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Shawn91111
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After 20 posts in this thread your act has become tiresome
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Post #37 12/30/14 3:47PM Send PM Send Avatar Bet Quote Reply
FKA
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WSOF is horrible......they have some decent prospects and some good veterans but they dont know what theyre doing and pretty much is a plaything for the owner sig rogich who is besties with dana thats why thry never get shit on and actually get referred by dana.

Elitexc was ok in the beginnings kinfa lije wsof with vets but turned out to be a fight fixing joke.

STRIKEFORCE holds a dear place in my hesrt....it grew from just kickboxing to the #2 mma org in the world.they ran great shows and gave fans whst they wanted.

SOO many people shit on strikeforce and FIGHTERS saying they wetent on par with ufc.....well look at the ufc roster now LMFAO most of their stars and top ten came directly from strikeforce.

Titanfc.....isnt worth mentining....


Hands down best org ever was PRIDE there just isnt an argument.......


Oh and shawn........same to you LMFAO
Last edited 12/30/14 6:56PM server time by FKA
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Bloodyelbow had an antitrust expert witness go over and explain not only the legalese that makes up the claim against the UFC, but how it will likely be defended.

Its a long read but here are the 3 parts.

Part 1
Part 2

3rd part about the relevance of Fighter career length to the lawsuit

To quote him.

It's highly unlikely this case will reach a verdict or even go to trial. It's also unlikely to be an industry-wide game changer. But it's a first of its kind and who knows what the butterfly effect will be down the road.


I fully expect this lawsuit will be dismissed very early on. The best fighters can hope for is that they pass the first hurdle or 2 and get the UFC to settle out of court in exchange for some small concessions.

When you read his analysis you get a sense of how futile this lawsuit really is.
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prozacnation1978
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I think we can all agree that the ufc is heading in the wrong direction.

We all know how to turn it around.
Ufc is so ignorant.


I like the days when we had like 16 ppv a year
Ufc gave us 2 free numbered events per year.


I do think to increase ppv buys
Stacking the cards is the right directions
Getting old but big name ufc fighters on the card mixed with new rising stars is a start

To increase fight pass or make it worth your while

Have two free exclusive fight pass ppv.
Doesn't have to be title fights but big events in over sea places like sweden. Japan Ireland England.
You could place straw weight or fly weight main events for free for members. They will appreciate the gesture of 2 free ppv a year.

Like pride shock wave annual
Ufc really needs to go all out for fight week ppv
And year end events.


I do think the ufc should promote rising stars to fight nights only. No need to have big names save them for the ppv and just solely have fight night events for new commers in the ufc or fighters on the verge of top 10 status .

Have those rising stars make a name for themselves on those fight nights then put them on ppv portions.

So many ways the ufc could go.
Amazing how they won't
Give props
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Michael_Corleone
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Things changed when they signed with FOX. Without a doubt. Seems like they felt the risk was worth the exposure and household acceptance that FOX gives them. Things change, and when this contract is up, things could change again.

One thing is for sure, the beloved Pride FC wouldn't have ever sniffed a deal the like the one UFC made with FOX.


The UFC owns Pride. Litetally. Its dead. Let it go.
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Post #41 12/30/14 8:51PM Send PM Send Avatar Bet Quote Reply
FKA
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Lmao the deal PRIDE had in japan was much more lucrative and reached more households......so what are you talking about?

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Posted by FKA

Lmao the deal PRIDE had in japan was much more lucrative and reached more households......so what are you talking about?









Last edited 12/31/14 2:53AM server time by michael_corleone
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If you truly think the ufc deal with fox is so great and lucrative it makes the pay guys get EVEN MORE PISS POOR....

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FlashyG
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Posted by FKA

Lmao the deal PRIDE had in japan was much more lucrative and reached more households......so what are you talking about?



Source on this claim please?

It may have reached more households but if the PRIDE TV deal was paying over 840 Million dollars over 7 years why did the executives sell the company for a half finished case of Zima and a 2 for 1 coupon to Denny's?
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ufc lawsuit thread

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george112
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Posted by FlashyG

Posted by FKA

Oh and for the pay situation.....

Ufc sets the tone on pay......they should have been upping numbers ages ago ....instead they kill competition and limit fighters options to make a living.....

Competition creates lucrative markets for fighters and companys alike.....best numbers in mma were when they had a big rival like PRIDE or STRIKEFORCE

Guys like gilbert melendez and rampage have shown testing the market equals better pay.....somethin the ufc does not like.


What numbers were best when PRIDE and Strikeforce were around?

Neither of those companies were making money, both were losing so much that they were begging to be bought out. Even the UFC was making far less than they are today.

Fighter pay wasn't any better, TV ratings were worse, there were fewer networks airing MMA at all and the sport was unsanctioned in most of the continent.

Without the UFC, Bellator wouldn't exist, nor would almost any of the regional MMA organizations. This website wouldn't exist nor would many of other sites dedicated to the sport.

You keep repeating the mantra that the UFC should treat MMA like a sport not a business but you fail to recognize that sports are a business.

Do you really think if the UFC shut its doors tomorrow that fighter pay would improve?
or that Viacom is going to be the white knight that comes in and all of a sudden turns MMA into a utopia?

Seriously the idea that a massive corporation is going to take MMA and make it less businesslike is possibly the most laughable thing I've ever read here and a guy compared the UFC to the Nazi's yesterday.





To ignore the fact that the UFC has come along and tried to transform itself into an NBA, NFL, MLB type of operation WHILE at the same time not paying its fighters enough is downright bias TOWARDS the UFC.

Do fans really care at the end of the day what Org someone is in? No not at all as long as the fights are awesome and they get to see a name the recognized once in a while. Thats how people make a name for themselves.

What the UFC has done is make it very difficult to fight outside of their org and make a decent enough living.


Its not even a hard concept to understand, y'all are just making it difficult for FKA because he has come in here and spoken against the UFC . Like I have said in previous threads, the UFC nutthugging is getting out of control. Like seriously.

Take a look at this site back in the day when I joined, the site that you yourself say was the brain child of the UFC, and tell me that Pride wasn't getting a lot more attention then as far as hardcore fans go.

Pride was putting on STACKED shows. I mean CONSISTENTLY.

It bothers me, like really bothers me, when someone says the sport wouldn't be what it is today if it wasn't for the UFC. To say that one would have to ignore just how many HUGE STARS came from SOMEWHERE ELSE and that they were still big in those other Orgs.

The fact of the matter is. The UFC is NOT the NFL, NBA, MLB, etc… and they never will be as long as Dana White is running the show.

The Major leagues I mentioned earlier are run by respectable individuals who don't act like a complete ass hat. They don't bad mouth the very people playing in their leagues. They don't hold personal vendettas against players. They don't act hard either. Dana though? Yeah I don't even have to go into that.

And its funny, I posted a long time ago that Dana's attitude would eventually catch up to him.

These dudes have a background in gambling. More specifically casinos. Do you know how much lobbying power they probably (most likely) possess? An astronomical amount I am guessing. The lawsuit makes absolute sense and it will cause some ripples and changes just watch. No wonder other orgs can't get a strong enough foothold to actually be on par with the UFC. :rolls eyes:


In the end, I want to see super fights. I don't care about the bullshit ranking system. I want to watch fights where the likelihood of a KO or Sub is greater. I want to see stacked cards. NOT watered down free cards, NOT PPVs with a couple big names, NOT WMMA (sorry girls, you have like ONE star),
Last edited 12/30/14 12:14PM server time by george112
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Disagreeing = Nuthugging....gotcha
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Post #32 12/30/14 11:09AM Send PM Send Avatar Bet Quote Reply
george112
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Post #33 12/30/14 11:21AM Send PM Send Avatar Bet Quote Reply
prozacnation1978
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I tried watching wsof and Bellator

Strike force
Elite xc
Pride.


Ufc is the best.
Best to watch. I enjoy it by far the most.
I want all the fighters to be in the ufc. Give me a reason not to watch Bellator or wsof anymore.

If the ufc ever folded. I think I would easily become a casual fan of mma. And eventually I think I would stop watching. I wouldn't be going to events anymore.
Stop following the fighters. Definitely you wouldn't see me on the play ground as much at all.

Ufc means a lot in my life.
Gave me a reason to take trips. Travel. I never did that eve before. Never took time off work.
Gave me passion and something to look forward to at the end of the week or month. I don't want it to end.
Give props
Post #34 12/30/14 12:16PM Send PM Send Avatar Bet Quote Reply
FKA
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George........YOUR TRULY AN OG

Ufc wouldnt be around if it wasnt for the SEG ERA UFC which they stole.

The ufc that is today was founded on dirtbag morals and hasnt changed.

Prozak is completely righy the ufc could shave a large portion of their current roster and make WAY better cards.....

The ufc has no fucking clue what they are doing ....they are FLOODING the market with a shit product.....AND for the life of them cant get a foothold in china or russia.

Ufc is driving this sport straight into the ground......

They get mma on fox and espn get official rankings and market their product as on par with other major sports ....but they aren't making real attempts at legitimizing the sport.

M-1 in affiliation with wammaa is currently working in russia trying to get mma into the olympics.

Thry have had full amateur and professional tournaments with like 25 countries represented.

Ufc cant even get legalized in newyork....

Bellator is the one who patented glove technology with everlast that reduce hand injury by 60%......

Any person who takes the time to actually read first hand all the ACTUAL events that took place from the time lorenzo dirtbagged SEG UFC up until today....

Cannot support what is and has been going on.....UFC is not the end all be all of MMA.

Pride shit all over the ufc for ages until shady yakuza bs........ufc will fall much the same with mafia ties and people starting not to be scared speaking out against zuffa.

I mean really journalists who ask the wrong questions are black balled,fighters like frank shamrock erased from ufc hof because personnel vendetta.......

They literally are a sinking ship.....and i couldn't be happier.


Give props
Post #35 12/30/14 3:31PM Edit Post Send PM Send Avatar Bet Quote Reply
FKA
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I enjoy mma from all over the globe most fans only watch north American mma so they dont appreciate anything else.....

Ufcs production is bad.....fighters enter from a rathole......i prefer pride/strikeforce/bellator ramp walkouts with a big monitor and fireworks.

Ufc overall appeal for me is down.....half the cards are so watered down i rarely watch the prelims anymore or even anything but main and co main.

I was massive ufc fan....,,but whats there to get excited about.....

A bunch of 125ers or 115lb woman???

Ufc is all about the next big hype.....

Even if you have to buy an entire watered down division to have one star to promote.

I just cant get behind their business model because its fucking retarded.
Give props
Post #36 12/30/14 3:40PM Edit Post Send PM Send Avatar Bet Quote Reply
Shawn91111
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After 20 posts in this thread your act has become tiresome
Give props
_______________________________________
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Post #37 12/30/14 3:47PM Send PM Send Avatar Bet Quote Reply
FKA
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WSOF is horrible......they have some decent prospects and some good veterans but they dont know what theyre doing and pretty much is a plaything for the owner sig rogich who is besties with dana thats why thry never get shit on and actually get referred by dana.

Elitexc was ok in the beginnings kinfa lije wsof with vets but turned out to be a fight fixing joke.

STRIKEFORCE holds a dear place in my hesrt....it grew from just kickboxing to the #2 mma org in the world.they ran great shows and gave fans whst they wanted.

SOO many people shit on strikeforce and FIGHTERS saying they wetent on par with ufc.....well look at the ufc roster now LMFAO most of their stars and top ten came directly from strikeforce.

Titanfc.....isnt worth mentining....


Hands down best org ever was PRIDE there just isnt an argument.......


Oh and shawn........same to you LMFAO
Last edited 12/30/14 6:56PM server time by FKA
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Post #38 12/30/14 3:50PM Edit Post Send PM Send Avatar Bet Quote Reply
FlashyG
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Bloodyelbow had an antitrust expert witness go over and explain not only the legalese that makes up the claim against the UFC, but how it will likely be defended.

Its a long read but here are the 3 parts.

Part 1
Part 2

3rd part about the relevance of Fighter career length to the lawsuit

To quote him.

It's highly unlikely this case will reach a verdict or even go to trial. It's also unlikely to be an industry-wide game changer. But it's a first of its kind and who knows what the butterfly effect will be down the road.


I fully expect this lawsuit will be dismissed very early on. The best fighters can hope for is that they pass the first hurdle or 2 and get the UFC to settle out of court in exchange for some small concessions.

When you read his analysis you get a sense of how futile this lawsuit really is.
Give props
_______________________________________
Very easily to trick - Josh Koscheck

Post #39 12/30/14 5:00PM Send PM Send Avatar Bet Quote Reply
prozacnation1978
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I think we can all agree that the ufc is heading in the wrong direction.

We all know how to turn it around.
Ufc is so ignorant.


I like the days when we had like 16 ppv a year
Ufc gave us 2 free numbered events per year.


I do think to increase ppv buys
Stacking the cards is the right directions
Getting old but big name ufc fighters on the card mixed with new rising stars is a start

To increase fight pass or make it worth your while

Have two free exclusive fight pass ppv.
Doesn't have to be title fights but big events in over sea places like sweden. Japan Ireland England.
You could place straw weight or fly weight main events for free for members. They will appreciate the gesture of 2 free ppv a year.

Like pride shock wave annual
Ufc really needs to go all out for fight week ppv
And year end events.


I do think the ufc should promote rising stars to fight nights only. No need to have big names save them for the ppv and just solely have fight night events for new commers in the ufc or fighters on the verge of top 10 status .

Have those rising stars make a name for themselves on those fight nights then put them on ppv portions.

So many ways the ufc could go.
Amazing how they won't
Give props
Post #40 12/30/14 5:50PM Send PM Send Avatar Bet Quote Reply
Michael_Corleone
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Things changed when they signed with FOX. Without a doubt. Seems like they felt the risk was worth the exposure and household acceptance that FOX gives them. Things change, and when this contract is up, things could change again.

One thing is for sure, the beloved Pride FC wouldn't have ever sniffed a deal the like the one UFC made with FOX.


The UFC owns Pride. Litetally. Its dead. Let it go.
Give props
Post #41 12/30/14 8:51PM Send PM Send Avatar Bet Quote Reply
FKA
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Lmao the deal PRIDE had in japan was much more lucrative and reached more households......so what are you talking about?

Give props
Post #42 12/30/14 10:17PM Edit Post Send PM Send Avatar Bet Quote Reply
Michael_Corleone
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Posted by FKA

Lmao the deal PRIDE had in japan was much more lucrative and reached more households......so what are you talking about?









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If you truly think the ufc deal with fox is so great and lucrative it makes the pay guys get EVEN MORE PISS POOR....

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Posted by FKA

Lmao the deal PRIDE had in japan was much more lucrative and reached more households......so what are you talking about?



Source on this claim please?

It may have reached more households but if the PRIDE TV deal was paying over 840 Million dollars over 7 years why did the executives sell the company for a half finished case of Zima and a 2 for 1 coupon to Denny's?
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oh wow this thread is still going
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Yakuza exposure was tipping point but seethy dealings untold betting debts and a shit ton of things that we will never hear about.

Once pride fell off good graces with fuji tv because of public pressure due to yakuza outting they were screwed.fuji financed a good deal of their shows once they lost backing they were done.

No other tv company would touch them they had a huge blackeye.

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Pride was putting on STACKED shows. I mean CONSISTENTLY.


And its funny, I posted a long time ago that Dana's attitude would eventually catch up to him.

These dudes have a background in gambling. More specifically casinos. Do you know how much lobbying power they probably (most likely) possess? An astronomical amount I am guessing. The lawsuit makes absolute sense and it will cause some ripples and changes just watch. No wonder other orgs can't get a strong enough foothold to actually be on par with the UFC. :rolls eyes:


In the end, I want to see super fights. I don't care about the bullshit ranking system. I want to watch fights where the likelihood of a KO or Sub is greater. I want to see stacked cards. NOT watered down free cards, NOT PPVs with a couple big names, NOT WMMA (sorry girls, you have like ONE star),


100000% Agree!
Nice post brotha!
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Posted by FlashyG

This lawsuit would had a much greater chance of being winnable a few years ago when the UFC bought out Strikeforce, and Bellator was in its infancy

Right now they have a better competitor in Bellator than they have since PRIDE died.

Comparatively the UFC's "Monopoly" is far less of one than the one the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL own in their respective sports.


Zuffa was investigated by some government commission (can't remember which one) shortly after the Strikeforce buyout. They've been investigated several times for monopolizing the sport. I've always assumed they greased some hands.. or the committee's are pretty damn incompetent.

It's not just about having competition. It's about restricting fighters ability to earn a fair living. Champions clauses and the like are unconstitutional, hence the reason they were banned in boxing.

There are no NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL monopolies. Players have the option of playing for 25+ different teams (aka companies) MMA fighters in North America have 2 choices, and both those choices require the fighters to sign (restrictive) long term contracts. Duopolies aren't much better than monopolies either, so even with Bellator in the fold MMA needs some regulation
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Posted by FlashyG

Posted by FKA

Lmao the deal PRIDE had in japan was much more lucrative and reached more households......so what are you talking about?



Source on this claim please?

It may have reached more households but if the PRIDE TV deal was paying over 840 Million dollars over 7 years why did the executives sell the company for a half finished case of Zima and a 2 for 1 coupon to Denny's?


They sold to Zuffa because Zuffa promised to keep Pride alive and to promote the brand in North America. They had better offers from K-1 among others.

Sakakibara took Zuffa to court in Japan claiming Zuffa didn't live up to their end of the agreement. Zuffa counter-sued claiming Sakakibara didn't submit his criminal background check in time. Zuffa purposely killed Pride, just like they did to Strikeforce.

At the time Pride was more lucrative (so was k-1). Zuffa was profitable but still in massive debt and they hadn't been in the green for long.
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Posted by jae_1833

Well I disagree...I do not want to see 75 new organizations popping up across the world putting on horrible mismatches while claiming that their champion is the best but not television it due to lack of revenue and then paying it's fighters $1500...it was called the dark ages of MMA for a reason. Wandy got paid less than $500 for an untelevised and bare knuckles fighting organization several times. Without medical insurance, without corporate sponsorship money being invested. He has a proper retirement and a gym in both Brazil and the US now all thanks to the UFC. Your understandable dislike for Dana White is blinding you to the simple fact that without the UFC and it's casual fans, who only know Weidman as that one guy that beat Anderson Silva twice, the sport will disappear and all these guys cursing the UFC will be realizing they made a mistake only too late to do shit about it. I hope they lose horribly and get ridiculed for the rest of their lives.


Wanderlei was making more in Pride.

UFC and the Brazilian orgs were the ones that were paying him shit. He got paid a million per fight for his fights with Fujita and Mirko, not to mention all the tv commercials etc.

The UFC didn't make him rich, Japan did, but the UFC did try to destroy his career and memory just because he skipped a test.

Boxing didn't disappear when the Muhamed Ali reform act was passed. If boxing promoters were involved we would've seen Jones vs. Anderson and GSP vs. Anderson because the $20 million they each earned would've motivated them. The $2-3 million UFC offered wasn't enough to make the fight happen. Askren wouldn't be in Japan fighting nobodies. UFC is hurting MMA, not saving it.

Guys like Akebono, Royce, and Rickson were being offered $2-3 million per fight by K-1, when UFC was paying their top guys around $150k per fight. That was 10 years ago, UFC is making way more now than Pride or K-1 did, and still paying less (apart from Brock who did earn around $3million per fight)
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CALLING ALL TRUE MMA FANS!!!!!

Lol seems there are plenty of well educated fans im loving it.

Props to all who spread the truth!!!!


PRIDE NEVER DIES (until you broker a deal with a common street rat.
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Posted by Bustamante-Aoki

Posted by FlashyG

This lawsuit would had a much greater chance of being winnable a few years ago when the UFC bought out Strikeforce, and Bellator was in its infancy

Right now they have a better competitor in Bellator than they have since PRIDE died.

Comparatively the UFC's "Monopoly" is far less of one than the one the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL own in their respective sports.


Zuffa was investigated by some government commission (can't remember which one) shortly after the Strikeforce buyout. They've been investigated several times for monopolizing the sport. I've always assumed they greased some hands.. or the committee's are pretty damn incompetent.

It's not just about having competition. It's about restricting fighters ability to earn a fair living. Champions clauses and the like are unconstitutional, hence the reason they were banned in boxing.

There are no NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL monopolies. Players have the option of playing for 25+ different teams (aka companies) MMA fighters in North America have 2 choices, and both those choices require the fighters to sign (restrictive) long term contracts. Duopolies aren't much better than monopolies either, so even with Bellator in the fold MMA needs some regulation


The fact that the UFC was investigated and cleared actually serves to strengthen their argument. Especially when the previous investigation came when the UFC's competition was at its weakest point ever.

I doubt the UFC will lose any sleep over losing the champion's clauses in their contracts if that is the best the fighters can do. They will be forced to pay their title holders even better salaries in order to keep them happy, but that ruling would also prevent Bellator from their use of them, making all their title holders available to the UFC.

Champion clauses are about the only thing in that entire lawsuit that have a chance at standing up in court.
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Posted by FlashyG

Posted by Bustamante-Aoki

Posted by FlashyG

This lawsuit would had a much greater chance of being winnable a few years ago when the UFC bought out Strikeforce, and Bellator was in its infancy

Right now they have a better competitor in Bellator than they have since PRIDE died.

Comparatively the UFC's "Monopoly" is far less of one than the one the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL own in their respective sports.


Zuffa was investigated by some government commission (can't remember which one) shortly after the Strikeforce buyout. They've been investigated several times for monopolizing the sport. I've always assumed they greased some hands.. or the committee's are pretty damn incompetent.

It's not just about having competition. It's about restricting fighters ability to earn a fair living. Champions clauses and the like are unconstitutional, hence the reason they were banned in boxing.

There are no NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL monopolies. Players have the option of playing for 25+ different teams (aka companies) MMA fighters in North America have 2 choices, and both those choices require the fighters to sign (restrictive) long term contracts. Duopolies aren't much better than monopolies either, so even with Bellator in the fold MMA needs some regulation


The fact that the UFC was investigated and cleared actually serves to strengthen their argument. Especially when the previous investigation came when the UFC's competition was at its weakest point ever.

I doubt the UFC will lose any sleep over losing the champion's clauses in their contracts if that is the best the fighters can do. They will be forced to pay their title holders even better salaries in order to keep them happy, but that ruling would also prevent Bellator from their use of them, making all their title holders available to the UFC.

Champion clauses are about the only thing in that entire lawsuit that have a chance at standing up in court.


That's true the difference this time is that it's a court case backed by fighters, rather than an investigative committee. I don't know how much that will matter. I'll be surprised if these court cases cause any real change to mma, but I hope they do. At the very least it's more fuel for the regulation fire.

I think Zuffa would definitely lose sleep if they lost their champions clauses. The Attorney Generals office was the one who applied the Muhamed Ali Reform Act to boxing. Frank and Lorenzo donate millions to the attorney generals office (by way of campaign contributions) Even Dana usually bites his tongue when talking about the NSAC (or he goes easy on them) since the Nevada Attorney Generals office oversees the NSAC. Zuffa's not donating millions for fun, they fear legislation, but they get along with the current office so they're pretty safe as long as that current staff is in office.

As far as I'm concerned Zuffa killed Strikeforce and Pride, and they tried to destroy Bellators image prior to their Spike debut. The Fertita's relationship with Sig and WSOF is very suspicious as well. Most fighters have no leverage come negotiation time, It's clear to me what Zuffa's up to, but I have little faith in the courts to do anything about it...

Even if the court does side with the fighters, who would be the one to actually write the legislation? I think it would be the Attorney Generals office... who are already in Zuffa's pocket.
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If you read the links I provided on the last page the Anti-trust expert says in his analysis that having already been investigated and cleared will certainly help the UFC in their argument.

That the UFC killed Strikeforce and PRIDE doesn't really impact the case unless the fighters attorneys can prove that the UFC did so by leveraging their "Monopolistic" powers.

If the UFC just ran their business better and established themselves as the king of the market they are well within their rights to destroy any competitor that gets too big for their liking.

I don't think the many people actually understand the lawsuit and what its actually about.
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Posted by FlashyG

Posted by FKA

Lmao the deal PRIDE had in japan was much more lucrative and reached more households......so what are you talking about?



Source on this claim please?

It may have reached more households but if the PRIDE TV deal was paying over 840 Million dollars over 7 years why did the executives sell the company for a half finished case of Zima and a 2 for 1 coupon to Denny's?


I forgot about this but found what made me say what i said about prides tv deal.

It was from a Zach arnold article http://www.fightopinion.com/2011/12/24/antonio-inoki-shadow-war/

Heres the part i was talking about....




Lost in all the talk about UFC on Fox is that PRIDE’s deal with Fuji TV still remains, by far, the largest and most successful MMA/network partnership in the history of the business. Ari Emanuel may have brokered a sweeter cash deal for Zuffa with Fox paying out $90-$100M USD/year but Fuji TV brought a hell of a lot more to the table for PRIDE. We’re not just talking credibility with sponsorships but flat out world-class production values that blows away what we’re seeing right now with the standard UFC-produced show. Oh, and Fuji TV paid PRIDE an estimated $50M USD a year, helped Dream Stage amass top-level corporate sponsorship, and PRIDE in return brought in 15-25 million viewers per telecast. UFC has a long ways to go in that department and it’s doubtful they will ever reach that kind of consistent level of audience on broadcast television in the States.


https://global-mma.forumotion.com/t11465-pride-fc-had-15-25-million-viewers-per-telecast-and-was-paid-50m-usd-a-year-by-fuji-tv?highlight=PRIDE
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Posted by FKA

Posted by FlashyG

Posted by FKA

Lmao the deal PRIDE had in japan was much more lucrative and reached more households......so what are you talking about?



Source on this claim please?

It may have reached more households but if the PRIDE TV deal was paying over 840 Million dollars over 7 years why did the executives sell the company for a half finished case of Zima and a 2 for 1 coupon to Denny's?


I forgot about this but found what made me say what i said about prides tv deal.

It was from a Zach arnold article http://www.fightopinion.com/2011/12/24/antonio-inoki-shadow-war/

Heres the part i was talking about....




Lost in all the talk about UFC on Fox is that PRIDE’s deal with Fuji TV still remains, by far, the largest and most successful MMA/network partnership in the history of the business. Ari Emanuel may have brokered a sweeter cash deal for Zuffa with Fox paying out $90-$100M USD/year but Fuji TV brought a hell of a lot more to the table for PRIDE. We’re not just talking credibility with sponsorships but flat out world-class production values that blows away what we’re seeing right now with the standard UFC-produced show. Oh, and Fuji TV paid PRIDE an estimated $50M USD a year, helped Dream Stage amass top-level corporate sponsorship, and PRIDE in return brought in 15-25 million viewers per telecast. UFC has a long ways to go in that department and it’s doubtful they will ever reach that kind of consistent level of audience on broadcast television in the States.


https://global-mma.forumotion.com/t11465-pride-fc-had-15-25-million-viewers-per-telecast-and-was-paid-50m-usd-a-year-by-fuji-tv?highlight=PRIDE


As I suspected, They surpassed the UFC in terms of viewership but weren't even in the ballpark as far as money is concerned.

The UFC actually gets 120 Million a year from the Fox deal, so more than double what Fuji was paying PRIDE.

The part about production value/credibility with sponsors/corporate sponsorship etc is just the writers spin/opinion and ultimately has no bearing on the comparison between the 2 deals.

I'm pretty sure the UFC handles its own production on its events, FOX just broadcasts what they produce. If the UFC wanted to spend more of that 120 million on production they could and would easily match or surpass what was normal in PRIDE. They also already have a level of credibility with sponsors that PRIDE didn't even dream of.

If there is any company with a better TV deal than the FOX deal its probably Bellator's with SPIKE, since its likely they pay absolutely nothing for it considering their parent company owns the network.
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15-25 million viewers per telecast. UFC has a long ways to go in that department and it’s doubtful they will ever reach that kind of consistent level of audience on broadcast television in the States.




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Posted by FKA

15-25 million viewers per telecast. UFC has a long ways to go in that department and it’s doubtful they will ever reach that kind of consistent level of audience on broadcast television in the States.






It's hard to compare the 2 deals as far as viewership is concerned as the UFC keeps its best fights for PPV cards and tends to put far weaker cards on free FOX cards.

Even so I doubt they would be able to routinely pull the 10-15 million viewers PRIDE was getting even in the twilight of their existence. NFL football playoffs struggle to top 25 million viewers so the UFC doesn't have a chance of touching PRIDE's best #'s, even if they stacked the FOX cards.

On the flip side PRIDE was pulling those kind of ratings and getting paid less than half what the UFC is getting for a fraction of those viewers. It goes to show how much better the UFC is being run than PRIDE was.
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Zuffa purchased PRIDE and STRIKEFORCE.

But they did so using US currency, not monopoly money.

I think that says it all.
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Posted by Bustamante-Aoki

Posted by FlashyG

If you read the links I provided on the last page the Anti-trust expert says in his analysis that having already been investigated and cleared will certainly help the UFC in their argument.

That the UFC killed Strikeforce and PRIDE doesn't really impact the case unless the fighters attorneys can prove that the UFC did so by leveraging their "Monopolistic" powers.

If the UFC just ran their business better and established themselves as the king of the market they are well within their rights to destroy any competitor that gets too big for their liking.

I don't think the many people actually understand the lawsuit and what its actually about.


Why do you think I said true? It will only help so much though. When a court has a re-trial they don't just say, this guy won the first case so he wins this one too, they go over the evidence again, and enter new evidence.

Zuffa wasn't the highest bidder for Pride, but they ended up getting Pride because they promised to use their position in the market to promote Pride. Sounds like using their monopolistic power to me.

They stole the best fighters from Strikeforce and then folded it under the guise of it not being profitable, sure, you took most of their top draws away, of course the ratings are declining.

Zuffa clearly used their influence over the NSAC & CSAC to build and maintain their place in the market. Many different promoters accused tem of this, including the guy Zuffa bought the UFC from, after screwing him over. Lorenzo voted against legalizing MMA, then bought the UFC from Bob Meyorowitz, then approved the sport in Nevada. That's a blatant abuse of power.
Im very interested to read the dissension to this post.

Sounds pretty logical to me though
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Posted by george112

Posted by Bustamante-Aoki

Posted by FlashyG

If you read the links I provided on the last page the Anti-trust expert says in his analysis that having already been investigated and cleared will certainly help the UFC in their argument.

That the UFC killed Strikeforce and PRIDE doesn't really impact the case unless the fighters attorneys can prove that the UFC did so by leveraging their "Monopolistic" powers.

If the UFC just ran their business better and established themselves as the king of the market they are well within their rights to destroy any competitor that gets too big for their liking.

I don't think the many people actually understand the lawsuit and what its actually about.


Why do you think I said true? It will only help so much though. When a court has a re-trial they don't just say, this guy won the first case so he wins this one too, they go over the evidence again, and enter new evidence.

Zuffa wasn't the highest bidder for Pride, but they ended up getting Pride because they promised to use their position in the market to promote Pride. Sounds like using their monopolistic power to me.

They stole the best fighters from Strikeforce and then folded it under the guise of it not being profitable, sure, you took most of their top draws away, of course the ratings are declining.

Zuffa clearly used their influence over the NSAC & CSAC to build and maintain their place in the market. Many different promoters accused tem of this, including the guy Zuffa bought the UFC from, after screwing him over. Lorenzo voted against legalizing MMA, then bought the UFC from Bob Meyorowitz, then approved the sport in Nevada. That's a blatant abuse of power.
Im very interested to read the dissension to this post.

Sounds pretty logical to me though


This isn't a re-trial though, it's a separate suit, that happens to have some overlap. Any time the fighters try to use Strikeforce as an example in the case, Zuffa lawyers can easily shut it down by pointing out they were already investigated and cleared of those accusations.

Although neither of us are lawyers or experts in anti-trust laws, and neither were either of us privy to what was in the offers for either company or the terms of those sales. So essentially our opinions on the lawsuit don't really carry any weight.

The Anti-trust experts does however and in his opinion this lawsuit have very little chance of changing anything within MMA and almost no chance of winning.
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4th class action lawsuit announced against zuffa

Link
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more former UFC fighters were named on the 5th complaint filed against Zuffa.

Link
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Take it from a disgruntled employee.

If their is ever a lawsuit against my ex company.
I would file as well.


A lot of ex ufc fighters. Probably upset they were cut.

Not surprised kingsbury is added.


Waiting for Cody Mckenzie
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http://mmapayout.com/2015/04/plaintiffs-in-zuffa-antitrust-case-file-opposition-to-motion-to-transfer-venue/


Zuffa trying to move the trial to vegas is being challenged.....

Hope their recent luck in court continues
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I think ufc will probably reach some sort of settlement and that will be it. They just wanna get paid.

Surprised wandy isn't on this band wagon yet
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Who knows man?

A number of outcomes could happen its anyone's guess.

We just wait and see im just keeping updated on anything related to it.


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Posted by prozacnation1978

I think ufc will probably reach some sort of settlement and that will be it. They just wanna get paid.

Surprised wandy isn't on this band wagon yet


I think the most likely outcome is that the lawsuit gets tossed out.

If Zuffa fails to get it tossed then they'll settle.

That's probably the best outcome the fighters can hope for, because the odds of them winning the lawsuit is very low.
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I'm interested in hearing FKA's analysis of the trial if it gets "tossed". Will he accept it? Or will there be some other explanation laced with esoteric insights?
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I think ufc pays them out. Never sees trial
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http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2015/5/14/8604095/ufc-fighter-monopoloy-lawsuit-zuffa-files-motion-to-stay-discovery-of-15-years


Zuffa files a motion to stay discovery of 15 years of financial Statements.......lol hmmmmmmm wonder why???
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Posted by FKA

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2015/5/14/8604095/ufc-fighter-monopoloy-lawsuit-zuffa-files-motion-to-stay-discovery-of-15-years


Zuffa files a motion to stay discovery of 15 years of financial Statements.......lol hmmmmmmm wonder why???


That link was not working, went to BE and this was the top story:

Federal Trade Commission re-opens UFC investigation, contacting promoters, fighters and managers
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Link is still working at gmma......im gonna check out that link u jus posted.



Well good to see the FTC is looking into zuffa again especially after i've heard people all reference the ftc not finding or releasing anything realky the first go round.......obviously sonething is of interest to them,why else het back into it especially the depth they are going.


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I could think of many reasons they don't want anyone knowing that, in fact I can think of billion$ of reasons.

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They wouldn't want to reveal the true amount they make because it would show how bad the reebok deal really is for fighters.

Things are again taking an interesting turn n this ever changing saga lol.
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The link i posted still works at globalmma and on bloodyelbow just type in Google Federal Trade Commission investigating UFC again.

Wonder what all the usual posters who dismiss most posts on here think about these turn of events???


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Posted by FKA

The link i posted still works at globalmma and on bloodyelbow just type in Google Federal Trade Commission investigating UFC again.

Wonder what all the usual posters who dismiss most posts on here think about these turn of events???




I'm not sure what you mean? The article you tried to post was about Zuffa filing to prevent having to turn over their financials until the judge rules on whether the entire lawsuit should be thrown out of court.

The FTC investigation isn't really all that shocking, because of the anti-trust issues raised by the lawsuit they were bound to investigate.

Considering they didn't find anything wrong when the UFC bought Strikeforce and were at their most dominant in the MMA market, I find it hard to believe they will find the UFC abusing a monopoly when they have more competition now than they have since PRIDE was around.

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Comparison of a UFC contract to a Bellator contract

Using the lawsuits claims point by point, here is a comparison of the UFC's contracts vs Bellators.

(Keep in mind there is no way of knowing if all contracts for both companies follow this framework, but there are very few full contracts available to the public for comparison)

Long story short, Bellator's contracts are near carbon copies of UFC contracts with just the parties names changed, and a few more restrictive clauses added. Based on the legal experts opinion Bellators contracts are more restrictive and so similar that it will be very hard to argue that the UFC has done anything their competitors haven't also done. Thus making the lawsuit essentially unwinnable for the fighters.
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One could argue that the ufc is the top dog so of course the contracts would be similar to the #2 org as ufc basically sets the pay standards for mma.

Bellator has additional clauses to protect from poaching but also is much more free when it comes to letting guys fight outside the org for money or just to help out another org.

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Posted by FKA

One could argue that the ufc is the top dog so of course the contracts would be similar to the #2 org as ufc basically sets the pay standards for mma.

Bellator has additional clauses to protect from poaching but also is much more free when it comes to letting guys fight outside the org for money or just to help out another org.



That is missing the point. The crux of the anti-trust lawsuit is this

"The ‘Exclusivity Clause,' which binds UFC Fighters into a restricted relationship with the UFC and prohibits them from appearing in bouts televised or organized by actual or potential rival promotions...Regardless of the term of the agreement, the provision includes various termination and extension clauses that can be triggered at the UFC's sole discretion, thereby effectively extending the exclusivity provisions indefinitely."


The fact that Bellator uses the exact same clause in their contracts destroys any argument that the practice is an attempt by the UFC to monopolize talent.

It will be seen as standard practice considering the chief rival to the UFC does the exact same thing.

As for Bellator letting guys fight outside of the organization, that wasn't done in any way to help out another organization.

If there is one thing that Viacom and Zuffa have in common its that neither does anything that isn't to their benefit. They don't care in the slightest about other organizations, the fighters or the sport.

They care about making money.
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Brett cooper and Volkov both were lent out cooper was even a late minute replacement against Khalidov in KSW to save the cards main event.obviously you've been misinformed.

Volkov fought back to back in between bellator fights ,once at Tech Krepfc against Roy Boughton and then fought Alexei Kudin in Union MMA Pro

They will continue to do that it helps with relationships with international companys and will pay dividends in the future.

If they lend fighters to possible rival companies doesn't that kinda fly in the face of that clause?
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Posted by prozacnation1978

With the amount of shows the ufc does
Ppv
Merchandise

Fox deal.


Yes ufc fighters should get paid way more.

I do think you could knock off 100 fighters off that roster and still have the amount of shows per year.

Who the fuck wants to fight twice a year for 15 k each
When you could fight 4 times a year cause the decrease in fighters.

This whole global expansion had watered down the cards and the ppv portions.


I am not soo sure about that. 4 fights a year is a pretty tight schedule. Training camps, injuries, time off to rest. It just isn't a job that runs on a clock. When a fighter is out for a year like Dominic Cruise, or suspended like Jones, you need that depth.

Dammit, this is not a one liner situation. Way too deep. This is a sport, but it is unlike any other. Is there another year round sport with no regular season? Boxing, kickboxing? I am trying to find a way to address the over-saturation issue. Do any of the -ball games suffer from over-saturation? Maybe half way through the season, but then it's gone, and you don't even get to decide if you want to watch it or not, as with MMA.

Ugh, it is frustrating to not be able to explain your thoughts and keep it under 4 pages.
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Posted by FKA

Brett cooper and Volkov both were lent out cooper was even a late minute replacement against Khalidov in KSW to save the cards main event.obviously you've been misinformed.

Volkov fought back to back in between bellator fights ,once at Tech Krepfc against Roy Boughton and then fought Alexei Kudin in Union MMA Pro

They will continue to do that it helps with relationships with international companys and will pay dividends in the future.

If they lend fighters to possible rival companies doesn't that kinda fly in the face of that clause?


I can assure you that Viacom didn't let those guys fight elsewhere without there being a benefit to Bellator, whether it be a financial payment, an agreement for a KSW fighter to fight on a Bellator card at a later date, to keep a fighter from leaving the organization all together or for some other reason that benefited them.

They didn't do it out of the goodness of their corporate hearts.

As for the legal issue, no, the fact that Bellator has lent fighters to other organizations doesn't change things at all. Both companies allow for fighters to fight elsewhere at the discretion of the promoter. Bellator has chose to allow it in some cases and the UFC hasn't but the fact is that the contract allows for them to do so.

It's impossible to argue that the UFC's contracts are monopolistic when their biggest competitors contracts are identical.
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Ufc has never and will never lend fighters.....

Bellator has and still does.....coker had a working relationship with dream i think bellator will do something similar with m1,fight bights,tech krep,or whatever sakakibara comed up with.

Zuffa has separatist syndrome meanwhile coker has said hes open to copromotion and tourneys .

Bellator is open to working with competitors to benefit mma on a whole .
Which is a polar opposite to zuffa,who shit on all other orgs trying to rule the mma landscape.


Viacom may be a corporate giant but they are following cokers business model which is pretty much identical to how strikeforce was run.

Bellator does do things to benefit mma just like the glove technology they made with everlast that has reduced hand injurys by more then half.

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Posted by FKA

Ufc has never and will never lend fighters.....

Bellator has and still does.....coker had a working relationship with dream i think bellator will do something similar with m1,fight bights,tech krep,or whatever sakakibara comed up with.

Zuffa has separatist syndrome meanwhile coker has said hes open to copromotion and tourneys .

Bellator is open to working with competitors to benefit mma on a whole .
Which is a polar opposite to zuffa,who shit on all other orgs trying to rule the mma landscape.


Viacom may be a corporate giant but they are following cokers business model which is pretty much identical to how strikeforce was run.

Bellator does do things to benefit mma just like the glove technology they made with everlast that has reduced hand injurys by more then half.



I could be way off base, but it sounds like you have an issue with the UFC/Zuffa
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Posted by FKA

Ufc has never and will never lend fighters.....

Bellator has and still does.....coker had a working relationship with dream i think bellator will do something similar with m1,fight bights,tech krep,or whatever sakakibara comed up with.

Zuffa has separatist syndrome meanwhile coker has said hes open to copromotion and tourneys .

Bellator is open to working with competitors to benefit mma on a whole .
Which is a polar opposite to zuffa,who shit on all other orgs trying to rule the mma landscape.


Viacom may be a corporate giant but they are following cokers business model which is pretty much identical to how strikeforce was run.

Bellator does do things to benefit mma just like the glove technology they made with everlast that has reduced hand injurys by more then half.



Bellator didn't develop the gloves for the good of MMA, they developed the gloves because fighters kept breaking their hands during their tournaments. Now they are trying to sell them to other organizations to make money not out of some altruistic drive to make MMA safer.

Viacom has attempted to follow any business model it thinks can make it money. Sure they are more open to co-promotion now, but that's because they are a distant 2nd in the MMA market. By co-promoting with other smaller organizations they can bring more eyeballs to their product.

Make no mistake though, should they ever become #1 that will be the last day they ever entertain the notion of co-promoting with anyone else.

All of this has nothing to do with my point though, which is that if Bellator's contracts are identical to the UFC's, then this lawsuit is doomed regardless of how often Bellator or the UFC exercises the clauses in their contracts
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Actually bellator offered to give the technology to the ufc for free when they first came out with it.....but dana had no reply lol.

Coker has ALWAYS been open to copromotion and helping mma since strikeforce started,its not just because they are #2,its because he has excellent relationships with overseas companys and has a great working relationship that benefits everyone envolved.

Coker has something up his sleeve especially with sakakibara asking him to help with his future endeavors ,coker is about the fans and fighters and of course turning a profit.

If this was as open and shut as you seem to think it is........it woukd have been dismissed or done already.

There are alot of unknown variables that could impact this case in the eyes of judge but all we can do is speculate until its done.

I see your point that bellator claiming monopolistic intentions with the contracts is muddy due to similarity but also when you take into account the overall business practices and the relationships ufc and bellator have with the rest of the mma world.......its not the same whatsoever.


I hope zuffa has to disclose all its financial statements and breakdowns of earnings and fighter payment because that would show the disparaging difference between the billions zuffa made and the hardly millions they paid out.

Or even the reebok deal.....how much is zuffa benefiting compared to how much sponsorship money fighters are losing.
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I would love and hate to see zuffas books come flying open. I think there would be a few unfortunate revelations, potentially frusturating information. Could be things that initiate something positive to happen for all fighters, what tradeoffs such a thing might entail... Who knows?

Viacom and bellator are very interesting in regards to Ufcs legal future. I think they are in one of the more unique positions different from all other promotions not named the Ufc, the type of forces behind their product that allow them to be comparable to the ufc, is the same power that kinda makes them different.

Zuffa an t shit as a media company compared to Viacom. But zuffa as a media company focused in the realm of mma with the Ufc is an entirely different beast compared to Viacoms participation with bellator. bellator does emulate the existing and thus far sustaining model of the Ufc admin wise most likely in many ways. But I think bellators current future and what the eventual brand is they become is much less sustainable, or at maybe predictable is the better word. What does Viacom really decide to do? they ditched a really poor product in tna impact and have pushed the boxing and kickboxing while slowing down the mma. Right now bellator is much more a tv product than any other promotion, and they are good it is and has been very well produced for a while, it's not presented like the Ufc which is packaged as an event still more than a show despite their increased frequency. Viacom has used bellator more as a show, they are kind of moving towards the event side with Coker, but it still doesn't seem committed, it still seems like it's a show on a Viacom channel. Where does this really end up for them? What commitment does Viacom make?

I think what bellator was, is and potentially becomes plays a role in what the ufcs future holds, especially in terms of competition being defined in court and enacted to garner viewers.

Much to come still.
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Posted by Shawn91111

Posted by FKA

Ufc has never and will never lend fighters.....

Bellator has and still does.....coker had a working relationship with dream i think bellator will do something similar with m1,fight bights,tech krep,or whatever sakakibara comed up with.

Zuffa has separatist syndrome meanwhile coker has said hes open to copromotion and tourneys .

Bellator is open to working with competitors to benefit mma on a whole .
Which is a polar opposite to zuffa,who shit on all other orgs trying to rule the mma landscape.


Viacom may be a corporate giant but they are following cokers business model which is pretty much identical to how strikeforce was run.

Bellator does do things to benefit mma just like the glove technology they made with everlast that has reduced hand injurys by more then half.



I could be way off base, but it sounds like you have an issue with the UFC/Zuffa



I could be way off base but you sound like an idiot on this entire thread. Nice av btw suits you to a T.

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Posted by FKA


If this was as open and shut as you seem to think it is........it woukd have been dismissed or done already.



I don't think its open and shut, mostly because all of this speculation is based off only a single Bellator contract and the very few UFC contracts that are publicly available.

It's possible that Alvarez' Bellator contract was a one off, and not their standard contract.

I don't even think those contracts are enough to dismiss the entire lawsuit, just a part of it. Although that part is a rather large piece of the lawsuit.

I do think that the more you look into the lawsuit and into the competition to the UFC, the odds of the fighters winning get worse and worse.
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Posted by FKA

Ufc has never and will never lend fighters.....

Bellator has and still does.....coker had a working relationship with dream i think bellator will do something similar with m1,fight bights,tech krep,or whatever sakakibara comed up with.

Zuffa has separatist syndrome meanwhile coker has said hes open to copromotion and tourneys .

Bellator is open to working with competitors to benefit mma on a whole .
Which is a polar opposite to zuffa,who shit on all other orgs trying to rule the mma landscape.


Viacom may be a corporate giant but they are following cokers business model which is pretty much identical to how strikeforce was run.

Bellator does do things to benefit mma just like the glove technology they made with everlast that has reduced hand injurys by more then half.



The UFC leant Chuck Liddell out to Pride and got screwed by them. I know it was one time but never is such an absolute term. They have allowed fighters to fight in other ORGs while still under contract as well if I remember correctly, usually guys on a losing streak or Like after Corey Hill broke his leg. It's not much different than releasing them though and I can't remember them doing it in recent years.

As far as them, "Shitting on all other ORGs" I think your off base on that. They have a great relationship with Legacy and the RFA.
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Posted by machodog76

Posted by FKA

Ufc has never and will never lend fighters.....

Bellator has and still does.....coker had a working relationship with dream i think bellator will do something similar with m1,fight bights,tech krep,or whatever sakakibara comed up with.

Zuffa has separatist syndrome meanwhile coker has said hes open to copromotion and tourneys .

Bellator is open to working with competitors to benefit mma on a whole .
Which is a polar opposite to zuffa,who shit on all other orgs trying to rule the mma landscape.


Viacom may be a corporate giant but they are following cokers business model which is pretty much identical to how strikeforce was run.

Bellator does do things to benefit mma just like the glove technology they made with everlast that has reduced hand injurys by more then half.



The UFC leant Chuck Liddell out to Pride and got screwed by them. I know it was one time but never is such an absolute term. They have allowed fighters to fight in other ORGs while still under contract as well if I remember correctly, usually guys on a losing streak or Like after Corey Hill broke his leg. It's not much different than releasing them though and I can't remember them doing it in recent years.

As far as them, "Shitting on all other ORGs" I think your off base on that. They have a great relationship with Legacy and the RFA.


Explain how the Ufc was screwed by pride because of Liddell s involvement in the pride gp.

I wouldn't classify their relationship with other orgs as great. more like those little shit covered orgs better know their role and never dream big and we are cool than great.
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Rfa and legacy are openly ufc feeders with ufc out clauses.......of course ufc has a good relationship with them lmfao.

When ufc lent out fighters it was when they were number 2 it was to prove ufc was on par with pride so they put chuck in a tourney.......ufc did get screwed........chuck LOST HAHA

Strikeforce had a partnership with dream were they traded fighters,Bellator is doing similar things with tech krep,fight nights,ksw,and m1.This is not ,and has never been a relationship the ufc has had with any other org......

Ufc has a decent relationship with wsof because sig rogich and dana are besties....,of all the major orgs it has been the only one free of scrutiny from the baldfather

M1 has been shit on repeatedly by ufc,so has bellator,strikeforce,pride,onefc,...

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Posted by JoeWarren33

Posted by Shawn91111

Posted by FKA

Ufc has never and will never lend fighters.....

Bellator has and still does.....coker had a working relationship with dream i think bellator will do something similar with m1,fight bights,tech krep,or whatever sakakibara comed up with.

Zuffa has separatist syndrome meanwhile coker has said hes open to copromotion and tourneys .

Bellator is open to working with competitors to benefit mma on a whole .
Which is a polar opposite to zuffa,who shit on all other orgs trying to rule the mma landscape.


Viacom may be a corporate giant but they are following cokers business model which is pretty much identical to how strikeforce was run.

Bellator does do things to benefit mma just like the glove technology they made with everlast that has reduced hand injurys by more then half.



I could be way off base, but it sounds like you have an issue with the UFC/Zuffa



I could be way off base but you sound like an idiot on this entire thread. Nice av btw suits you to a T.



You are correct, you are way off base. But at least you admitted you were way off base. Keep trying sunshine
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The UFC got screwed because it was supposed to be a fighter exchange, and Pride never came through on their end (as I remember it at the time); not because Chuck lost. And I have to ask did you laugh your fucking ass off? I say no.

Most other leagues are feeders and I never said The RFA and Legacy were buddies with the UFC because of Dana's super altruistic nature; I'm just pointing out that your statements that the UFC never has, never will lend out fighters and shits on all other ORGs are incorrect. For the most part the UFC leaves the smaller shows alone until they get big enough to either be a competitor or become a valuable acquisition.
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UFC shits on all the big leagues......i didnt think id have to be specific mentioning regional orgs(obviously no competition to any if the top orgs in the world)who are open zuffa feeders........so yeah obviously any org they are openly working with is going to have a good relationship with the baldfather.

Your nit picking.......but the fact dana has openly made disparaging remarks against the top orgs in the world doesn't change.....ufc doesn't have a working relationship with ANY real possible competitor like bellator......

And yeah my ass fell right off that's how hard you made me laugh

Thanks

But shawns Av.........fucking priceless
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Posted by GDPofMPG

Posted by machodog76

Posted by FKA

Ufc has never and will never lend fighters.....

Bellator has and still does.....coker had a working relationship with dream i think bellator will do something similar with m1,fight bights,tech krep,or whatever sakakibara comed up with.

Zuffa has separatist syndrome meanwhile coker has said hes open to copromotion and tourneys .

Bellator is open to working with competitors to benefit mma on a whole .
Which is a polar opposite to zuffa,who shit on all other orgs trying to rule the mma landscape.


Viacom may be a corporate giant but they are following cokers business model which is pretty much identical to how strikeforce was run.

Bellator does do things to benefit mma just like the glove technology they made with everlast that has reduced hand injurys by more then half.



The UFC leant Chuck Liddell out to Pride and got screwed by them. I know it was one time but never is such an absolute term. They have allowed fighters to fight in other ORGs while still under contract as well if I remember correctly, usually guys on a losing streak or Like after Corey Hill broke his leg. It's not much different than releasing them though and I can't remember them doing it in recent years.

As far as them, "Shitting on all other ORGs" I think your off base on that. They have a great relationship with Legacy and the RFA.


Explain how the Ufc was screwed by pride because of Liddell s involvement in the pride gp.

I wouldn't classify their relationship with other orgs as great. more like those little shit covered orgs better know their role and never dream big and we are cool than great.


I wouldn't call The RFA and Legacy shit covered ORGs, they've put quite a few fighters in the UFC the last 2 years. I also wouldn't attribute their clear B-team status to, "not dreaming big" so much as being realistic. Like it or not, the UFC is the Coke, Q tip, Kleenex, etc. of MMA. They can put out an inferior product (which I often think they do) and still retain the larger market share on brand recognition alone. For any of the other ORGs based in the US to think that they could compete head to head with the UFC and turn a profit would be delusional.

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The UFC didn't seem to have a problem lending Bellator Stephan Bonner, which I believe led to their biggest ratings yet.

I wish you a speedy recovery form your recent ass drop, take heart you will twerk again.

I think if you use terms like never and all, nit-picking should be expected. Those are absolutes and rarely useful when stating facts. If you're going for hyperbolic opinion stating, go nuts.
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Lol bonnar was retired he came out of retirement to fight tito.......he asked danas blessings so he wasn't erased from hall of fame like like shamrock lol.

if anything bonnar was done a favor....he got paid more money then ufc chamos get for defending their titles lol.
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Posted by FKA

Lol bonnar was retired he came out of retirement to fight tito.......he asked danas blessings so he wasn't erased from hall of fame like like shamrock lol.

if anything bonnar was done a favor....he got paid more money then ufc chamos get for defending their titles lol.


If Bellator is paying aged mid level fighters more than than the UFC is paying its title holders then you're now agreeing that the UFC should win this lawsuit.

Then again I don't think you really care about the lawsuit at all, other than as a topic where you can freely bang your "I hate the UFC" drum.
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Posted by machodog76


I wouldn't call The RFA and Legacy shit covered ORGs, they've put quite a few fighters in the UFC the last 2 years. I also wouldn't attribute their clear B-team status to, "not dreaming big" so much as being realistic. Like it or not, the UFC is the Coke, Q tip, Kleenex, etc. of MMA. They can put out an inferior product (which I often think they do) and still retain the larger market share on brand recognition alone. For any of the other ORGs based in the US to think that they could compete head to head with the UFC and turn a profit would be delusional.



I wouldn't call them that either, I posted that as an example of how I believe certain UFC higher ups would. I Agree with what you have said here for the most part and believe it perfectly illustrates what I am trying to say. You describe the role organizations should play by the UFC terms perfectly.

It's not realistic for most promotions to have anything more than meager ambitions because of the market position UFC entrenched themselves in and the landscape they have conditioned. The shit covering is the unwritten mandate that the role these organizations better know and not challenge is that their best commodities must become the UFC commodities, and organizations "dreaming big" by providing incentives to quality talent to continue doing business with them over only the UFC is an organization not knowing or playing the role the UFC expects of it. For the most parts we have seen the UFC be aggressive in opposition to these organizations with such ambitions in the past 15 years, casino money has seen them take ownership of each one who didn't play by the rules UFC believes they should.
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Posted by FlashyG

Then again I don't think you really care about the lawsuit at all, other than as a topic where you can freely bang your "I hate the UFC" drum.


Unless you can counter the merits of holding such an opinion after being presented with an array of reasons to justify holding it from the source, then what is this post really?

I care about the this topic as much as the person who started it. There is a reason this thread even exists, it has everything to do with the job the UFC is doing with their products. In particular the one product everyone here should, I hope, care about more then the UFC, the fighters who actually preform and put on the show we all watch. This entire discussion exists because UFC has demonstrated they are not great business partners for the fighters, a statement that seems to be reinforced weekly through their actions and the difficulties verbalized from people subject to their nefarious ways as a tradeoff for being a good fighter in this sport.
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Posted by FKA

Lol bonnar was retired he came out of retirement to fight tito.......he asked danas blessings so he wasn't erased from hall of fame like like shamrock lol.

if anything bonnar was done a favor....he got paid more money then ufc chamos get for defending their titles lol.


Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Bonner still have one fight on his contract? I Think Dana Released him so he could, "Kick Tito's ass".

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Posted by GDPofMPG

Posted by FlashyG

Then again I don't think you really care about the lawsuit at all, other than as a topic where you can freely bang your "I hate the UFC" drum.


Unless you can counter the merits of holding such an opinion after being presented with an array of reasons to justify holding it from the source, then what is this post really?

I care about the this topic as much as the person who started it. There is a reason this thread even exists, it has everything to do with the job the UFC is doing with their products. In particular the one product everyone here should, I hope, care about more then the UFC, the fighters who actually preform and put on the show we all watch. This entire discussion exists because UFC has demonstrated they are not great business partners for the fighters, a statement that seems to be reinforced weekly through their actions and the difficulties verbalized from people subject to their nefarious ways as a tradeoff for being a good fighter in this sport.


The reason this thread exists is because a few disgruntled fighters filed a lawsuit that has very little chance of winning.

Outside of the OP, and a few links he's provided FKA hasn't had any posts about the merits of the lawsuit.

He's spent the majority of it bashing Dana, wishing his death and making erroneous claims about the UFC's past based on forum posts from another messageboard not on any cited material.

There have been countless posts edited and deleted, and countless attempts to steer the conversation back to the lawsuit, but every time someone tries the same poster ends up steering it in all sorts of other directions mostly with variations of why he thinks Bellator is better than the UFC.
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Posted by FlashyG

Then again I don't think you really care about the lawsuit at all, other than as a topic where you can freely bang your "I hate the UFC" drum.


Unless you can counter the merits of holding such an opinion after being presented with an array of reasons to justify holding it from the source, then what is this post really?

I care about the this topic as much as the person who started it. There is a reason this thread even exists, it has everything to do with the job the UFC is doing with their products. In particular the one product everyone here should, I hope, care about more then the UFC, the fighters who actually preform and put on the show we all watch. This entire discussion exists because UFC has demonstrated they are not great business partners for the fighters, a statement that seems to be reinforced weekly through their actions and the difficulties verbalized from people subject to their nefarious ways as a tradeoff for being a good fighter in this sport.


The reason this thread exists is because a few disgruntled fighters filed a lawsuit that has very little chance of winning.

Outside of the OP, and a few links he's provided FKA hasn't had any posts about the merits of the lawsuit.

He's spent the majority of it bashing Dana, wishing his death and making erroneous claims about the UFC's past based on forum posts from another messageboard not on any cited material.

There have been countless posts edited and deleted, and countless attempts to steer the conversation back to the lawsuit, but every time someone tries the same poster ends up steering it in all sorts of other directions mostly with variations of why he thinks Bellator is better than the UFC.


You cannot identify the players with out acknowledgment of the origin of their intent on the matter. It's an intent which is derived from issues publicly harbored by many more then just those participating in the various lawsuits and who know s how many who keep their thoughts private for fear of retaliation. Critique of the business enacted by the UFC, Dana included, is explicitly germane to the greater topic at hand because again, it is the reason the topic exists to begin with. For years before this topic was even made, grievances have been aired regarding the UFCs practices. I've seen many adequate points, arguments and examples be brought from both sides of the table on an array of ancillary subjects relevant to the greater discussion.
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Posted by GDPofMPG

Posted by FlashyG

Posted by GDPofMPG

Posted by FlashyG

Then again I don't think you really care about the lawsuit at all, other than as a topic where you can freely bang your "I hate the UFC" drum.


Unless you can counter the merits of holding such an opinion after being presented with an array of reasons to justify holding it from the source, then what is this post really?

I care about the this topic as much as the person who started it. There is a reason this thread even exists, it has everything to do with the job the UFC is doing with their products. In particular the one product everyone here should, I hope, care about more then the UFC, the fighters who actually preform and put on the show we all watch. This entire discussion exists because UFC has demonstrated they are not great business partners for the fighters, a statement that seems to be reinforced weekly through their actions and the difficulties verbalized from people subject to their nefarious ways as a tradeoff for being a good fighter in this sport.


The reason this thread exists is because a few disgruntled fighters filed a lawsuit that has very little chance of winning.

Outside of the OP, and a few links he's provided FKA hasn't had any posts about the merits of the lawsuit.

He's spent the majority of it bashing Dana, wishing his death and making erroneous claims about the UFC's past based on forum posts from another messageboard not on any cited material.

There have been countless posts edited and deleted, and countless attempts to steer the conversation back to the lawsuit, but every time someone tries the same poster ends up steering it in all sorts of other directions mostly with variations of why he thinks Bellator is better than the UFC.


You cannot identify the players with out acknowledgment of the origin of their intent on the matter. It's an intent which is derived from issues publicly harbored by many more then just those participating in the various lawsuits and who know s how many who keep their thoughts private for fear of retaliation. Critique of the business enacted by the UFC, Dana included, is explicitly germane to the greater topic at hand because again, it is the reason the topic exists to begin with. For years before this topic was even made, grievances have been aired regarding the UFCs practices. I've seen many adequate points, arguments and examples be brought from both sides of the table on an array of ancillary subjects relevant to the greater discussion.


Explain to me how wishing to "toast marshmallows on the flaming carcass of Dana White" has any relevance to the topic of the Lawsuit against the UFC and maybe you will have a leg to stand on.
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I don't technically think it does, to me it is more a colorful conveyance regarding the source of so many MMA fans frustration on this topic. I also don't think any answer I provide to such a question reasonably or rationally determines my leg to stand on or that single cherry picked quotes paint the entire picture of the the point you'd like to make regarding the greater conversation at hand.
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Posted by GDPofMPG

I don't technically think it does, to me it is more a colorful conveyance regarding the source of so many MMA fans frustration on this topic. I also don't think any answer I provide to such a question reasonably or rationally determines my leg to stand on or that single cherry picked quotes paint the entire picture of the the point you'd like to make regarding the greater conversation at hand.


My point is and was, that FKA has not shown any interest in discussing or debating the lawsuit. He's instead started this thread so he could take further pot shots at the UFC, Dana White and Zuffa.

You came to the defence of your teammate and seem to think that his posts in this thread are acceptable and on topic.

I simply asked you to explain the relevance of the quote I provided to the topic at hand.

If you'd like to further discuss this feel free to PM me, but we've veered far away from the topic ourselves now and its probably best to leave this thread until further developments happen with the lawsuit.

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Posted by machodog76

The UFC got screwed because it was supposed to be a fighter exchange, and Pride never came through on their end (as I remember it at the time); not because Chuck lost.


Today is the first time I've heard this.

My knowledge of the situation if I recall was, a not bald, Dana White expressing in a few interviews that UFC was the best, had the best fighters, and Pride did not (a habit he couldn't even shake after the ferrtitats bought Pride) etc.,. He put his ego out there and trotted who he thought was his best fighter out there and made some giant bets that his one UFC fighter would win their GP by beating Wanderlei Silva in particular. He had failed and dana looked like, well he looked like Dana and was muy bitter.

I don't remember the fighter exchange part at all, only Dana's ego being royally humbled. I'd love to see the story behind a fighter exchange though.
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I'll try to find it, I remember that the UFC was supposed to get Arona or Shogun for a UFC card (again this is from my memory so I could be totally wrong on this one.). I remember a video interview with Dana where he said he said as much. I'll try and google search something to verify though.

"It would be another four years before Chuck Liddell would meet Wanderlei Silva, though it almost happened a year earlier. At UFC 61, Dana White brought both fighters into the cage for a staredown after he announced that Liddell would meet Silva should Liddell defend his light heavyweight title in a rematch against Renato Sobral. Negotiations between Pride and the UFC broke down, however, and it the two didn't meet until December of 2007 after Zuffa purchased Pride earlier in the year." (From Bloody elbow)

I think this is what I'm remembering. They announced the fight at UFC 61 between Wanderlei and chuck. Wand came out with his Pride shirt on and announced that he wanted to, "Fuck Chuck". I think according to Dana this was sort of a handshake agreement with Nobuyuki Sakakibara. Dana felt shafted at the time but who knows for sure; we all know how he likes to redact history to serve his version of it.

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Posted by FlashyG

Posted by GDPofMPG

I don't technically think it does, to me it is more a colorful conveyance regarding the source of so many MMA fans frustration on this topic. I also don't think any answer I provide to such a question reasonably or rationally determines my leg to stand on or that single cherry picked quotes paint the entire picture of the the point you'd like to make regarding the greater conversation at hand.


My point is and was, that FKA has not shown any interest in discussing or debating the lawsuit. He's instead started this thread so he could take further pot shots at the UFC, Dana White and Zuffa.

You came to the defence of your teammate and seem to think that his posts in this thread are acceptable and on topic.

I simply asked you to explain the relevance of the quote I provided to the topic at hand.

If you'd like to further discuss this feel free to PM me, but we've veered far away from the topic ourselves now and its probably best to leave this thread until further developments happen with the lawsuit.



FKA doesn't care? I care because the guy has the same team name? What we are all talking about needs to be suppressed?

I guess it's at your discretion, right?
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Posted by machodog76

I'll try to find it, I remember that the UFC was supposed to get Arona or Shogun for a UFC card (again this is from my memory so I could be totally wrong on this one.). I remember a video interview with Dana where he said he said as much. I'll try and google search something to verify though.


I remember him talking about trying to get Sakuraba back into the UFC for some fights, but I don't know if it was before or after the Liddell Jackson fight. I think he had said he wanted to do his own type of Gracie vs Sakuraba type thing. Also hard to imagine Sakuraba going back there considering the way White talks about Pride in general and how he was revered in Pride. But I'm not certain about the exchange. If that did happen then UFC got stung. I think Dana bet the Pride President like 100K that Chuck would win though. I believe Dana screwed himself most of all though running his mouth and making big bets with the Japanese. If there was an exchange deal I could even imagine White being the one to pull the plug on it, humility is not a strong suit for him in my opinion and I doubt he could take it if someone from Pride did come over and was successful. I Don;t know though.
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Yeah gdp is defending me ........thats why macho came to keep it neutral lol...,,camps don't mean shit.....we share similar opinions.

I don't care about this.......right....

That's why ive posted links and updates about the case every time one comes up right?

I also spent several days discussing your opinion on the similarities in the ufc and bellator contracts.......but clearly this is just a troll post for me.....

You trying to cherry pick quotes to make a point........classy.if anything i care more about this lawsuit then anyone and i will continue to update this topic as it becomes available.
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Posted by GDPofMPG

Posted by machodog76

I'll try to find it, I remember that the UFC was supposed to get Arona or Shogun for a UFC card (again this is from my memory so I could be totally wrong on this one.). I remember a video interview with Dana where he said he said as much. I'll try and google search something to verify though.


I remember him talking about trying to get Sakuraba back into the UFC for some fights, but I don't know if it was before or after the Liddell Jackson fight. I think he had said he wanted to do his own type of Gracie vs Sakuraba type thing. Also hard to imagine Sakuraba going back there considering the way White talks about Pride in general and how he was revered in Pride. But I'm not certain about the exchange. If that did happen then UFC got stung. I think Dana bet the Pride President like 100K that Chuck would win though. I believe Dana screwed himself most of all though running his mouth and making big bets with the Japanese. If there was an exchange deal I could even imagine White being the one to pull the plug on it, humility is not a strong suit for him in my opinion and I doubt he could take it if someone from Pride did come over and was successful. I Don;t know though.


It was 250k and yes Dana lost big on that one.
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Posted by FKA

if anything i care more about this lawsuit then anyone


And THAT, is what has me curious. Why the intense interest?

What is your connection to this matter?
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Posted by FlashyG

Posted by FKA

Brett cooper and Volkov both were lent out cooper was even a late minute replacement against Khalidov in KSW to save the cards main event.obviously you've been misinformed.

Volkov fought back to back in between bellator fights ,once at Tech Krepfc against Roy Boughton and then fought Alexei Kudin in Union MMA Pro

They will continue to do that it helps with relationships with international companys and will pay dividends in the future.

If they lend fighters to possible rival companies doesn't that kinda fly in the face of that clause?


I can assure you that Viacom didn't let those guys fight elsewhere without there being a benefit to Bellator, whether it be a financial payment, an agreement for a KSW fighter to fight on a Bellator card at a later date, to keep a fighter from leaving the organization all together or for some other reason that benefited them.

They didn't do it out of the goodness of their corporate hearts.

As for the legal issue, no, the fact that Bellator has lent fighters to other organizations doesn't change things at all. Both companies allow for fighters to fight elsewhere at the discretion of the promoter. Bellator has chose to allow it in some cases and the UFC hasn't but the fact is that the contract allows for them to do so.

It's impossible to argue that the UFC's contracts are monopolistic when their biggest competitors contracts are identical.


Both Bellator's and the UFC's contracts are monopolistic and restrictive. It's easy to argue, imo.

Bellator lends fighters because they can't keep all their fighters active and they have to release them if they can't give them a certain amount of fights in a certain time frame, so they allow some of their guys to fight elsewhere to earn a living. I'm pretty sure the other orgs give them nothing in return.

And Coker has always shared fighters, he's trying to build a brand (bellator) and they want to be number one but he also wants the sport to grow, unlike Zuffa who have hired PR firms to persuade the media to use the term ultimate fighting, instead of MMA. UFC wants to be MMA, Coker wants to lead MMA. There is a big difference. Coker may have corrupt bosses but he's still fighting for the fighters as much if not more than the promotion. You can't say the same about Dana, he represents the Fertita's and the UFC not the fighters or the sport.

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Posted by machodog76

The UFC got screwed because it was supposed to be a fighter exchange, and Pride never came through on their end (as I remember it at the time); not because Chuck lost. And I have to ask did you laugh your fucking ass off? I say no.

Most other leagues are feeders and I never said The RFA and Legacy were buddies with the UFC because of Dana's super altruistic nature; I'm just pointing out that your statements that the UFC never has, never will lend out fighters and shits on all other ORGs are incorrect. For the most part the UFC leaves the smaller shows alone until they get big enough to either be a competitor or become a valuable acquisition.


Pride came through, UFC just wanted more than they should have.

UFC lent Chuck to Pride, which was clearly for their own benefit since UFC was a clear #2 and because Dana bet $1 million of his own money that Chuck would beat Wand in the finals. He was obviously very confident. Dana thought Chuck would beat Fedor, he thought Chuck was a god.

UFC asked for Sakuraba in return, Prides biggest star, and they wanted him for three fights, because they leant Chuck out for three fights. The problem was UFC didn't want to do tournaments so they wanted Sakuraba for three different cards when they only leant Chuck out for one card, where Chuck would fight 1-3 times depending on how he did. The Mezger fight was part of another deal. Later Pride leant them Wanderlei and UFC announced Chuck vs. Wand only to have it fall through. Again UFC was insisting on a three fight contract for Wand, which wasn't fair to Pride. Chuck wasn't a huge draw for the UFC in 2003, Wand and Saku were however massive draws for Pride in Japan. UFC's greed fucked them... and the fans, as it always does

Zuffa is friendly to RFA because Ed Soares owns and runs it. He's too busy to ever try and compete with the UFC and the show is designed to give a spotlight to young up and coming prospects that he can later sell to the UFC for more money because he made them stars first. WSOF is owned by a good friend of the Fertita's. Invicta is UFC's farm team for WMMA. UFC only likes the orgs that bend over for them. They sued IFL, Cage Rage, Bellator and lots of other smaller orgs. They bought/destroyed Pride, WFA, IFL, Strikeforce and Afflicition. They helped to almost destroy kickboxing by convincing Sakakibara to sell to them instead of K-1 who offered more, they convinced Sakakibara by lying and saying they wanted to keep Pride running. There is no proof but many insiders accused former CSAC head Armando Garcia of ruining several California MMA orgs, for Zuffa. Garcia is now head of security for Station Casino's. Lorenzo Fertita voted against sanctioning MMA when he was on the NSAC board of directors. It's awesome that they're finally starting to help other promotions like Shooto Brazil and maybe Pancrase but it's almost too late now. The Japanese scene is on life-support atm, does Zuffa care at all? Coker is trying to work with Japanese orgs.

Zuffa wants to be MMA, Coker wants Bellator to lead MMA in North America with unofficial partners in Asia, Russia and Europe working along side him to make the sport successful. Zuffa sues anyone who calls the cage an octagon, or uses the words ultimate with the words fighting and/or championship
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Posted by machodog76

Posted by GDPofMPG

Posted by machodog76

I'll try to find it, I remember that the UFC was supposed to get Arona or Shogun for a UFC card (again this is from my memory so I could be totally wrong on this one.). I remember a video interview with Dana where he said he said as much. I'll try and google search something to verify though.


I remember him talking about trying to get Sakuraba back into the UFC for some fights, but I don't know if it was before or after the Liddell Jackson fight. I think he had said he wanted to do his own type of Gracie vs Sakuraba type thing. Also hard to imagine Sakuraba going back there considering the way White talks about Pride in general and how he was revered in Pride. But I'm not certain about the exchange. If that did happen then UFC got stung. I think Dana bet the Pride President like 100K that Chuck would win though. I believe Dana screwed himself most of all though running his mouth and making big bets with the Japanese. If there was an exchange deal I could even imagine White being the one to pull the plug on it, humility is not a strong suit for him in my opinion and I doubt he could take it if someone got the better of him in.

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A lot of that seems familiar BofA. You have a better memory than me. all in all Chuck/sakuraba trade didn't work out well for Ufc at all sounds like, Chuck got.beat and they over reached with sakuraba. Can't believe that was 12 years ago.
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Posted by FlashyG

Bloodyelbow had an antitrust expert witness go over and explain not only the legalese that makes up the claim against the UFC, but how it will likely be defended.

Its a long read but here are the 3 parts.

Part 1
Part 2

3rd part about the relevance of Fighter career length to the lawsuit

To quote him.

It's highly unlikely this case will reach a verdict or even go to trial. It's also unlikely to be an industry-wide game changer. But it's a first of its kind and who knows what the butterfly effect will be down the road.


I fully expect this lawsuit will be dismissed very early on. The best fighters can hope for is that they pass the first hurdle or 2 and get the UFC to settle out of court in exchange for some small concessions.

When you read his analysis you get a sense of how futile this lawsuit really is.


The writer says

They're difficult cases to win, make no mistake about it. Realistically, the best-case scenario here probably isn't a victory at trial, but a reasonable settlement involving likeness rights and possibly contract length and the term of restricted free agency.


Not too long ago, the World Poker Tour was sued by its players for antitrust violations and the acquisition of player likeness rights "at a monetary price of zero" to run "in perpetuity throughout the universe." The players settled and didn't receive any monetary compensation but at least got new releases for their likeness rights.


So far the fighters have been winning the small battles in court. If the WPT guys have to be compensated for their likeness rights then the UFC should also have to pay for them. I don't think the writer understands how valid the fighters complaints are, nor does he fully grasp the situation.

That writer keeps comparing the UFC to the NFL as his proposed argument that monopolies are good. The NFL consists of 20+ teams each with their own owners. That's a terrible argument. Players have 20 options, UFC fighters have one option, Zuffa. Boxing is the only similar sport and Congress applied laws against them.

He may know about economics and he may know about MMA, but he doesn't know much about the economics of MMA. That football argument is terrible

Can this judge order a congressional investigation into MMA? That's where the big change would come from.
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Posted by Bustamante-Aoki

Posted by machodog76

Posted by GDPofMPG

Posted by machodog76

I'll try to find it, I remember that the UFC was supposed to get Arona or Shogun for a UFC card (again this is from my memory so I could be totally wrong on this one.). I remember a video interview with Dana where he said he said as much. I'll try and google search something to verify though.


I remember him talking about trying to get Sakuraba back into the UFC for some fights, but I don't know if it was before or after the Liddell Jackson fight. I think he had said he wanted to do his own type of Gracie vs Sakuraba type thing. Also hard to imagine Sakuraba going back there considering the way White talks about Pride in general and how he was revered in Pride. But I'm not certain about the exchange. If that did happen then UFC got stung. I think Dana bet the Pride President like 100K that Chuck would win though. I believe Dana screwed himself most of all though running his mouth and making big bets with the Japanese. If there was an exchange deal I could even imagine White being the one to pull the plug on it, humility is not a strong suit for him in my opinion and I doubt he could take it if someone from Pride did come over and was successful. I Don;t know though.


It was 250k and yes Dana lost big on that one.


I'm pretty sure Dana said $1 million on the Pride 10th anniversary PPV documentary.

He didn't lose though, the bet was that Chuck would beat Wanderlei in the finals and that fight never happened since Rampage beat Chuck in the semi's


You and all your informed opinions,

Interesting stuff though. I didn't know about the behind the scenes negotiations. I still think the UFC got screwed but it sounds like it was more of a self-fisting. I totally forgot Dana never had to pay up on the bet. To be clear, I don't think Dana does anything for other ORGs that doesn't benefit the UFC and Coker has a lot more class.

I have to ask though; do you actually remember all those details or did you have to search the intenets for that fact bomb?
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I was pretty obsessed with politics and history before I got hardcore into MMA. I've been following the political and business side of MMA closely since the start of 2006.

I used to work weird hours and everyday I would get home late and surf Sherdog for hours since there was nothing else to do at 3am on a weekday.

I've got into a lot of arguments about UFC's motives over the past 9 years and most of it has become ingrained in my memory. I haven't watched that Pride 10th anniversary show in 7 or 8 years but that was one of the parts that stood out in my memory, because I'd heard the rumors for years and finally had confirmation, from Dana himself.

I've read books about Pride and many insider versions of the story, including Sakakibara's version. I've also read Sakuraba's two books where he discusses it. I've heard Dana's version of the Chuck vs. Wand story a few times also, although his was always vague.

UFC did kind of get screwed but I believe it was because they asked for too much. I don't think Pride was trying to screw them over, it just happened that way. UFC could've borrowed fighters for one fight deals but they wanted to borrow top-fighters for a full year

Often when posting I'll re-check names and dates or to make sure I'm remembering correctly, or so I can post links to back-up my claims. but I know most of it off the top of my head. My memory is weird like that, I forget a lot things, but when it comes to Politics I usually remember.


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Posted by Bustamante-Aoki

Posted by FlashyG

Bloodyelbow had an antitrust expert witness go over and explain not only the legalese that makes up the claim against the UFC, but how it will likely be defended.

Its a long read but here are the 3 parts.

Part 1
Part 2

3rd part about the relevance of Fighter career length to the lawsuit

To quote him.

It's highly unlikely this case will reach a verdict or even go to trial. It's also unlikely to be an industry-wide game changer. But it's a first of its kind and who knows what the butterfly effect will be down the road.


I fully expect this lawsuit will be dismissed very early on. The best fighters can hope for is that they pass the first hurdle or 2 and get the UFC to settle out of court in exchange for some small concessions.

When you read his analysis you get a sense of how futile this lawsuit really is.


The writer says

They're difficult cases to win, make no mistake about it. Realistically, the best-case scenario here probably isn't a victory at trial, but a reasonable settlement involving likeness rights and possibly contract length and the term of restricted free agency.


Not too long ago, the World Poker Tour was sued by its players for antitrust violations and the acquisition of player likeness rights "at a monetary price of zero" to run "in perpetuity throughout the universe." The players settled and didn't receive any monetary compensation but at least got new releases for their likeness rights.


So far the fighters have been winning the small battles in court. If the WPT guys have to be compensated for their likeness rights then the UFC should also have to pay for them. I don't think the writer understands how valid the fighters complaints are, nor does he fully grasp the situation.

That writer keeps comparing the UFC to the NFL as his proposed argument that monopolies are good. The NFL consists of 20+ teams each with their own owners. That's a terrible argument. Players have 20 options, UFC fighters have one option, Zuffa. Boxing is the only similar sport and Congress applied laws against them.

He may know about economics and he may know about MMA, but he doesn't know much about the economics of MMA. That football argument is terrible

Can this judge order a congressional investigation into MMA? That's where the big change would come from.


WPT players aren't compensated by the WPT for their likeness by my understanding. What they won was the releases that allow them to profit from their likeness outside of the WPT.

In that regard I fully support the fighters. The UFC shouldn't have to pay them to use their likeness when promoting the UFC, but fighters should be able to profit of their own names in other endeavors. Toys, Video games, clothing etc.

I also agree that the football analogy isn't the best example, but sports like Tennis, and Golf are better examples that also have one dominant league that manages to compensate athletes fairly while still having what amounts to a monopoly on their sport.
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Most professional golfers live out of their cars.

Those PGA tournaments offer prize money. The Golfers don't work for the PGA, they compete in PGA events that offer prizes. The PGA doesn't restrict PGA golfers from golfing professionally elsewhere, there just aren't any other leagues giving out big paydays.

from Wikipedia:
The Association of Tennis Professionals (ATP) was formed in September 1972 by Donald Dell, Jack Kramer, and Cliff Drysdale to protect the interests of male professional tennis players. Drysdale became the first President. Since 1990, the association has organized the worldwide tennis tour for men and linked the title of the tour with the organization's name. In 1990 the organization was called the ATP Tour, which was renamed in 2001 as just ATP and the tour being called ATP Tour. In 2009 the name was changed again and is now known as the ATP World Tour.[1] It is an evolution of the tour competitions previously known as Grand Prix tennis tournaments and World Championship Tennis (WCT).


Tennis is the same. The ATP and PGA are governing bodies (or associations)

Boxing is the only sport that is really similar, imo. Kickboxing doesn't generate enough revenue to be compared to the UFC
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Posted by Bustamante-Aoki

Most professional golfers live out of their cars.

Those PGA tournaments offer prize money. The Golfers don't work for the PGA, they compete in PGA events that offer prizes. The PGA doesn't restrict PGA golfers from golfing professionally elsewhere, there just aren't any other leagues giving out big paydays.

from Wikipedia:
The Association of Tennis Professionals (ATP) was formed in September 1972 by Donald Dell, Jack Kramer, and Cliff Drysdale to protect the interests of male professional tennis players. Drysdale became the first President. Since 1990, the association has organized the worldwide tennis tour for men and linked the title of the tour with the organization's name. In 1990 the organization was called the ATP Tour, which was renamed in 2001 as just ATP and the tour being called ATP Tour. In 2009 the name was changed again and is now known as the ATP World Tour.[1] It is an evolution of the tour competitions previously known as Grand Prix tennis tournaments and World Championship Tennis (WCT).


Tennis is the same. The ATP and PGA are governing bodies (or associations)

Boxing is the only sport that is really similar, imo. Kickboxing doesn't generate enough revenue to be compared to the UFC


Boxing isn't really that similar either in that regard.

Boxers don't work for any particular organizations, there are just more governing bodies involved

Professional wrestling would probably be the closest comparison structure wise, but I'm not even sure if that's classified as a sport.
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Posted by FlashyG

Posted by Bustamante-Aoki

Most professional golfers live out of their cars.

Those PGA tournaments offer prize money. The Golfers don't work for the PGA, they compete in PGA events that offer prizes. The PGA doesn't restrict PGA golfers from golfing professionally elsewhere, there just aren't any other leagues giving out big paydays.

from Wikipedia:
The Association of Tennis Professionals (ATP) was formed in September 1972 by Donald Dell, Jack Kramer, and Cliff Drysdale to protect the interests of male professional tennis players. Drysdale became the first President. Since 1990, the association has organized the worldwide tennis tour for men and linked the title of the tour with the organization's name. In 1990 the organization was called the ATP Tour, which was renamed in 2001 as just ATP and the tour being called ATP Tour. In 2009 the name was changed again and is now known as the ATP World Tour.[1] It is an evolution of the tour competitions previously known as Grand Prix tennis tournaments and World Championship Tennis (WCT).


Tennis is the same. The ATP and PGA are governing bodies (or associations)

Boxing is the only sport that is really similar, imo. Kickboxing doesn't generate enough revenue to be compared to the UFC


Boxing isn't really that similar either in that regard.

Boxers don't work for any particular organizations, there are just more governing bodies involved

Professional wrestling would probably be the closest comparison structure wise, but I'm not even sure if that's classified as a sport.


That's true. I should've said the way boxing used to be (before the Muhamed Ali Reform Act) is the only thing comparable to the current MMA scene... but that was a while ago so it might not even really apply.

Wrestling is different also because they wrestle a lot more than twice a year. I wonder if they're on salary?

I`m quite curious to hear what Zuffa's defense is going to be
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So the meat of the antitrust case is that the fighters say the UFC `systematically prevented` competition by signing fighters to `long-term exclusive contracts`? And they have to show that the UFC did this in an anti-competitive manner? And the UFC's defense can just argue that there's no anti-competitive scheme, that they in fact sign as many elite mixed martial artists as possible to the deals they do to ensure things "are" competitive by having top guys face each other. And said fighter had/has the option to sign anywhere before signing a contract or after one ends?

I don't see how fighters intend to paint the UFC as preventing competition by using their contracts as an anti-competition scheme. It is extremely easy to argue away the same reasons as being what creates the competition in the sport. I'm not saying the UFC doesn't do things that would fall under the anti-competition flag, but based on the expert in antitrust cases from the links above laying out the basic framework, I'm not even seeing a case that's even halfway winnable. Granted I only read a brief summary of the case, not every link. Do I need to read more, or is the gist given really the most powerful ammo the fighters will have in the antitrust case?
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Posted by Kpro

So the meat of the antitrust case is that the fighters say the UFC `systematically prevented` competition by signing fighters to `long-term exclusive contracts`? And they have to show that the UFC did this in an anti-competitive manner? And the UFC's defense can just argue that there's no anti-competitive scheme, that they in fact sign as many elite mixed martial artists as possible to the deals they do to ensure things "are" competitive by having top guys face each other. And said fighter had/has the option to sign anywhere before signing a contract or after one ends?

I don't see how fighters intend to paint the UFC as preventing competition by using their contracts as an anti-competition scheme. It is extremely easy to argue away the same reasons as being what creates the competition in the sport. I'm not saying the UFC doesn't do things that would fall under the anti-competition flag, but based on the expert in antitrust cases from the links above laying out the basic framework, I'm not even seeing a case that's even halfway winnable. Granted I only read a brief summary of the case, not every link. Do I need to read more, or is the gist given really the most powerful ammo the fighters will have in the antitrust case?


Zuffa's long-term contracts and champions clauses exist for anti-competitive reasons. Why else? Why did they offer Nate a title fight in exchange for him signing an 8 fight deal at an amount he was unhappy with? To stop him from going to Bellator.

The reason professional baseball players earn so much money is because they have approx. 25 teams bidding for those players services, and bidding wars increase value. Apart from the few Bellator champs that UFC signed there hasn't been any bidding wars for fighters since the Strikeforce days. Competition forces industries to improve and grow, UFC has no competition anymore (except in Poland where UFC is the #2 org)

Why didn't Fedor vs. Randy happen when we all wanted it to? Because UFC wouldn't sign Fedor to a one fight deal and they wouldn't let Randy fight for the competition. It cost the fighters and the fans. That's the anti-competitive nature that hurts the sport and benefits Zuffa.

Boxing was reformed because promoters were restricting boxers' ability to get the fights they wanted to get, and their fair share of the profits. UFC is definitely guilty of the same "crimes"

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The civil suit alleges that the UFC has violated the Sherman Antitrust Act by illegally scheming to create a non-competitive marketplace that restricts the earning capabilities of fighters, as well as coercing fighters to relinquish rights to their names and likenesses. The plaintiffs seek injunctive relief and damages, and the suit claims to represent a class of current and former UFC fighters in similar situations as Le, Quarry and Fitch."This lawsuit is about fairness," Quarry told reporters during a press conference in San Jose, Calif., on Tuesday. "It's about a fair market value for the athletes. … It's time for those things to change. We deserve to be out in a free market place."

Zuffa is primarily owned by billionaires Lorenzo and Frank Fertitta, along with UFC president Dana White.

The UFC has had a stranglehold on MMA for the majority of the 21st century, and Zuffa has either bought up or driven out several other viable promotions. The suit references past statements made by White and other UFC officials comparing the promotion and its practices to that of the NFL and NBA, but makes a distinction in regards to those leagues' ability to foster an open market by creating a bidding war among individual teams.

The lawsuit alleges that the UFC has maintained control of more than 90 percent of the revenue derived from live MMA bouts nationwide. It also maintains that the UFC has allegedly retaliated against fighters who have worked with or who have announced intentions to work with rival promoters.

“UFC’s threats are taken seriously by fighters because they know that a UFC ban will substantially diminish, if not end, their ability to earn a living at their chosen profession,” said plaintiffs’ co-counsel Joseph Saveri of Saveri Law Firm, Inc. “These MMA professionals deserve the right to take back their careers.”


http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mma-cagewriter/ufc-accused-of--illegal-market-monopolization--in-lawsuit-filed-by-former--current-fighters-233458118-mma.html
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I see what you're getting at B-A and I understand the bullet points of their argument. I think all of those bullet points can be argued as anti-competitive in nature which is what's needed for this case to succeed. The problem is I can also see how every single one of those bullet points can be argued as not anti-competitive in nature. If both sides can reasonably make good solid points all around as to their stance, the lawsuit ship definitely sinks.

I'm just not seeing a smoking gun that Zuffa's lawyers won't be able to counter. Technically from moment a player belongs to a baseball/basketball/football organization they are signed for much longer than an average UFC employee's contract. Those bidding wars happen many many years post-draft, baseball especially.

They can explain away Fedor/Couture because Vadim wouldn't `let` Fedor sign unless he had a clause in the contract that the UFC would co-promote the event with M-1 logos all over and just as plentiful as the UFC ones on a UFC PPV. While they were setting up for a 3/4 billion deal with FOX and all their other deals the last thing they could've afforded to do was co-promote anything.

Again, I think the UFC does some shady contract negotiations when they have leverage. I think the UFC does engage in anti-competitive business conduct. I just don't see anything they're facing that can't be explained away in court as not being anti-competitive in nature. That's just the way I see it at surface value based on what the key points will be. I haven't read it in depth so maybe I'm missing something they're bringing to the table that will be very hard to spin away as anything but anti-competitive, I just haven't seen it.

EDIT: I'll scope out the link, they've gotta have more ammo than what I've seen if they feel they have a chance to win the case against the UFC, I'm not doubting the case, I just am really curious what it is that I haven't seen that makes them feel even good about taking it to court against the UFC.
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UFC wants into Russia now, and they can't get in. Vadim offered to help them in Russia through co-promotion. It wasn't a sticking point in the contract, according to Vadim. I'd love to see those documents released...

Orgs that were able to work with Vadim/M-1 = Strikeforce, Yarennoka, Dream, Pride, Affliction, Bodog, DEEP, Inoki Bomb-Ba- Ye, that Mark Ecko & Monte Cox org that never ended up doing a show...

Orgs that couldn't work with M-1 = Zuffa

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2015/5/14/8604095/ufc-fighter-monopoloy-lawsuit-zuffa-files-motion-to-stay-discovery-of-15-years


According to the request to stay, on Sunday, April 26, the Plaintiffs served Zuffa with 59 separate requests for production of documents


Zuffa also claims that "Plaintiffs seek 15 years of Zuffa's financial statements; balance sheets; regulatory filings; gate and merchandizing receipts from bouts, broken down by event, 'in as granular form as it is maintained'; revenues from broadcasts of bouts, broken down by event; advertising revenues, broken down by event; and revenues related to all MMA fighters, broken down by fighter, month and year, and itemized by revenue source and line item."


If the plaintiffs are asking for these kind of documents than they're going to be arguing that Zuffa is keeping too much of the profits... I don't see how Zuffa can defend themselves against those accusations, I really hope that information gets made public so we can see what percentage the fighters get. That alone would be a game changer, even if the case goes nowhere.
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Posted by Bustamante-Aoki

I was pretty obsessed with politics and history before I got hardcore into MMA. I've been following the political and business side of MMA closely since the start of 2006.

I used to work weird hours and everyday I would get home late and surf Sherdog for hours since there was nothing else to do at 3am on a weekday.

I've got into a lot of arguments about UFC's motives over the past 9 years and most of it has become ingrained in my memory. I haven't watched that Pride 10th anniversary show in 7 or 8 years but that was one of the parts that stood out in my memory, because I'd heard the rumors for years and finally had confirmation, from Dana himself.

I've read books about Pride and many insider versions of the story, including Sakakibara's version. I've also read Sakuraba's two books where he discusses it. I've heard Dana's version of the Chuck vs. Wand story a few times also, although his was always vague.

UFC did kind of get screwed but I believe it was because they asked for too much. I don't think Pride was trying to screw them over, it just happened that way. UFC could've borrowed fighters for one fight deals but they wanted to borrow top-fighters for a full year

Often when posting I'll re-check names and dates or to make sure I'm remembering correctly, or so I can post links to back-up my claims. but I know most of it off the top of my head. My memory is weird like that, I forget a lot things, but when it comes to Politics I usually remember.


Damn that's pretty impressive, my memory is terrible with that level of detail.
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UFC antitrust lawsuit heads into its first big motions in Nevada

Nevada Judge Richard Boulware is briefed to make his first two important rulings in the class action lawsuit filed against the UFC by current and former fighters after the case was transferred over from Northern California.

In early June, the class-action, antitrust lawsuit filed by current and former fighters against the UFC for monopolization in the MMA industry was transferred from Northern California to Nevada. This led Jon Fitch, one of the lead plaintiffs in the case, to tweet:

[fka]

Last page lol


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UFC Motion to dismiss denied.


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Motion to dismiss was denied!!!!!The entire case moves forward!!!!!!



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Sounds like the judge is very knowledgeable and is being very tough on zuffia haha.

Good step forward in a long process but its a big f you to those who thought it would just get tossed.

Glad fighters get a chance to be heard i know its no guarantee but its a definite positive day for mma.




I will post any worthwhile updates.

[nodogoshiModerator]

I'm not reading all that shit.

Who do you think I am.

[nodogoshiModerator]

Let's make it a 'what are you listening to now' instead.

[fka]

Theres some great arguments and funny comments in there i know alot of text but its funny.

But what evs lol

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