Should there be some revamp to the "PED thread"?

[Sweet Pea Is My Mom]

What's the general feeling of the forum? Thoughts, comments, opinions, etc.

[nodogoshiModerator]

I mentioned the adding known and admitted TRT users, but on second thought this is a really big gray area. I believe that it is certainly doping. But it does also really complicate things. I also criticized the inclusion of Diaz on the grounds that I believe marijuana is not a PED. But this presents a similar issue.

It would be possible to create two categories: illegal PED, which would likely include most on the lists, and 'other banned substances', which would include things like marijuana, and perhaps cocaine.

Perhaps a third category could be created for "known TRT users who have been granted a usage waver by an athletic commission".

With respect to determining what is a PED and what is an 'other banned substance', the International Olympic Committee publishes a list of PEDs. Substances such as marijuana are also banned, but are not on the list of PEDs.

Basically, anything which is not approved by the FDA (or similar orgs) is banned, and of those things that are approved, a good number of others are banned because they are considered PEDs. In fact, I believe they list all things that are regarded as PEDs, but all non-regulated substances are in addition banned by default.

I don't know if this will work in practice or not, but it's an idea. I'll see if I can find such the list also.

[Sweet Pea Is My Mom]

I mentioned the adding known and admitted TRT users, but on second thought this is a really big gray area. I believe that it is certainly doping. But it does also really complicate things. I also criticized the inclusion of Diaz on the grounds that I believe marijuana is not a PED. But this presents a similar issue.

It would be possible to create two categories: illegal PED, which would include most on the lists, and 'other banned substances', which would include things like marijuana, and perhaps cocaine.

Perhaps a third category could be created for "known TRT users who have been granted a usage waver by an athletic commission".

With respect to determining what is a PED and what is an 'other banned substance', the International Olympic Committee publishes a list of PEDs. Substances such as marijuana are also banned, but are not on the list of PEDs.

Basically, anything which is not approved by the FDA (or similar orgs) is banned, and of those things that are approved, a good number of others are banned because they are considered PEDs. In fact, I believe they list all things that are regarded as PEDs, but all non-regulated substances are in addition banned by default.

I don't know if this will work in practice or not, but it's an idea. I'll see if I can find such the list also.

I was thinking something along these lines as well: "Banned substances" to be the blanket term, with a further breakdown of i) PEDs, ii) 'banned substances'--recreational drugs and the like--and iii) TRT. I'll need some help on the TRT list, however, because it seems so many people are on it.

[nodogoshiModerator]

I guess I meant the World Anti-Doping Agency.

The 2012 list is here.
http://www.wada-ama.org/documents/world_anti-doping_program/wadp-prohibited-list/2012/wada_prohibited_list_2012_en.pdf

As the URL is to a pdf, here's also the website page from which it's accessed (in case of trouble).
http://www.wada-ama.org/en/world-anti-doping-program/sports-and-anti-doping-organizations/international-standards/prohibited-list/

[nodogoshiModerator]

If I'm not mistaken, basically if any fighter has been reprimanded for a banned substance, though the particular substance is not one which appears on the list, he can be placed in category ii.

[nodogoshiModerator]

What about fighters who have been reprimanded for TRT? Would they go in category 1 or 3?

I'm thinking as of this moment that I might vote for category 1 personally, and that those with an exemption also deserve a category of their own (hence category 3). But it could be done either way. I think that having a separate category for those with exemptions though helps to highlight the controversial nature of the exemptions, also. If this was the scheme though, there is the question of what to do with a guy like Chael Sonnen. Would he be listed twice?

Some things to discuss certainly.

[nodogoshiModerator]

One more thing, I think the threads should definitely be sticky'd.

They get buried and I have to search for them, but their really important. Kinda like the rankings thread.

[nodogoshiModerator]

Looking at the WADA list, I think that basically pages 1-6 we may classify as PEDs (this includes doping methods). Pages 7 and 8 list what we might consider other prohibited substances. This includes the following distinct categories: Stimulants, Narcotics, Cannabinoids (marijuana) and Glucocorticosteroids.

This is getting pretty complicated. Anyone have Victor Conte's phone number?

[nodogoshiModerator]

Just jokes. I think we are up to the task, but it is complicated. But WADA gives some good guidelines.

However, it would indeed be great if we could get Victor Conte to weigh in at some point once the lists are constructed. He probably wouldn't mind, if we can somehow get an email to him, which he reads. Not a sure bet of course, but worth giving a try. Maybe we can even get him to join up . I suggest we do our best to construct a good list first though. We can discuss the issues so far involved of course. I'm looking forward to hearing what others have to say.

[nodogoshiModerator]

Eddie Goldman would also be one to talk to. He may even be able to help with garnering expert opinions via his connections as well.

[Sweet Pea Is My Mom]

What about fighters who have been reprimanded for TRT? Would they go in category 1 or 3?

I'm thinking as of this moment that I might vote for category 1 personally, and that those with an exemption also deserve a category of their own (hence category 3). But it could be done either way. I think that having a separate category for those with exemptions though helps to highlight the controversial nature of the exemptions, also. If this was the scheme though, there is the question of what to do with a guy like Chael Sonnen. Would he be listed twice?

Some things to discuss certainly.

I would put them in #1 after they go over the legally allowed limit. Chael would go in #1 and #3, for me.

Just jokes. I think we are up to the task, but it is complicated. But WADA gives some good guidelines.

However, it would indeed be great if we could get Victor Conte to weigh in at some point once the lists are constructed. He probably wouldn't mind, if we can somehow get an email to him, which he reads. Not a sure bet of course, but worth giving a try. Maybe we can even get him to join up . I suggest we do our best to construct a good list first though. We can discuss the issues so far involved of course. I'm looking forward to hearing what others have to say.

Conte would probably comment on it. He seems pretty active on twitter.

[nodogoshiModerator]

If you want to start with the cross checking and categorizing with the WADA list, we could split the names in half or something like that.

[KSW]

I voted "Banned substances" list, with a further breakdown. This is hot stuff but I have to make some more research on the subject.

[Wolfman]

Voted for "Yes, it should be changed to a "Banned substances" list, with a further breakdown", even TRT if possible. I also voted for the breakdown because it would make it very interesting.

[nodogoshiModerator]

Any other thoughts on the discussion of criteria? For instance with respect to how to handle the TRT exemptions. Or any other questions or thoughts, etc.

Just asking.

[RussianTopTeamModerator]

MMA is a young mans sport. Anyone who abuses TRT/ uses PEDs shouldn't be competing in any professional sport PERIOD. If age finally caught up to you but you still want to compete like a 20 year old, but your body no longer allows you to, UNLESS you abuse substances, then it's time to just retire. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

[nodogoshiModerator]

MMA is a young mans sport. Anyone who abuses TRT/ uses PEDs shouldn't be competing in any professional sport PERIOD. If age finally caught up to you but you still want to compete like a 20 year old, but your body no longer allows you to, UNLESS you abuse substances, then it's time to just retire. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

Of course Bas Rutten has a loud platform, but Bas Rutten has said that his belief was always in good food and water. That's it.

Obviously drugs can give you a big edge. But they aren't necessary.

I would say that fighting is in fact a sport where this is more true than others. If you are running a 100 meter dash, drugs will make all the difference. However, if you are fighting someone, no amount of steroids will make you an able fighter. Of course, once you are a fighter, they can give you some big advantages. But it won't prevent you from being knocked out, or submitted.

[nodogoshiModerator]

To note, I think my present commentary regards a thread like this as even more important. In say track and field, everyone is drugged. It's a pre requisite. In fighting, this doesn't hold true. In that sense, in fighting it is truly cheating.

[Sweet Pea Is My Mom]

If you want to start with the cross checking and categorizing with the WADA list, we could split the names in half or something like that.

In my list, I can take up to Vitor Belfort, and you can do everything after? Shouldn't take very long.

[nodogoshiModerator]

Perhaps a fourth category is also needed:

Those for whom there is considerable circumstantial evidence to suggest they have used, but who haven't been reprimanded.

This would include Shane Carwin, who was on a list of steroid recipients.

Also Evander "Evan Fields" Holyfield was on a similar sort of list.

[nodogoshiModerator]

Melvin Guillard: 2
Chael Sonnen: ?
Adam Smith: 1 and 2
Jason Winthers: 1 and 2
Nick Diaz: 2
Jake Shields: ? ("undisclosed")
Mathew Riddle: 2
Franscisco Rivera: ? ("Undisclosed over-the-counter stimulant") 2?

All the rest following Vitor were solidly #1.

[nodogoshiModerator]

BTW, it is, thank god, a searchable PDF with ctrl-f.

[nodogoshiModerator]

Just wanted to clarify, it's your list of course. You own that shit. But I'm glad to help out. Excellent concept.

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