Re examining Rogans arguement vs DiBella

StillWill wrote:The UFC would have been taken a lot more seriously if they did things like have a ring and pay their fighters better. Its hard to be taken seriously and with loudmouth like Dana added to the equation they pretty muched killed their chances of being mainstream

PRIDE NEVER DIE wrote:Prime example, I can watch ufc with friends who are not really into mma, they always talk about the cage, its just to grimmy to look classy.

StillWill wrote:The UFC would have been taken a lot more seriously if they did things like have a ring and pay their fighters better. Its hard to be taken seriously and with loudmouth like Dana added to the equation they pretty muched killed their chances of being mainstream

"Meanwhile, the press office explained yesterday that Canelo Promotions Alvarez managed 29.4 points on Saturday in the Valley of Mexico and 26.1 points nationally. On that occasion the undefeated Guadalajara retained his WBC super welterweight belt against universal Shane Mosley by wide decision in 12 episodes,

A spokesman explained that "a rating point represents about 600 000 households, which increased by 26.1 points yields 15 million 660 thousand TV sets tuned in to Channel 5 in the country." It is estimated that each unit is compared to an average of three to four people."

Besides your own wishing thinking, what would that be based on, bud?

MMA has already shown that they haven't been able to sustain an audience in the long term in some nations already, including Japan and Brazil. In Japan they used to do shows in front of 30, 40, even 50 million television viewers and now MMA in Japan is basically on life support with interest having decreased a ton over there. Brazil has already had a couple of peaks and valleys during the Vale Tudo days. Was popular down there in around the 1930's before it fell off. Then it was again popular in the 50's and early 60's when they used to do shows in front 40 thousand people inside soccer stadiums, as well as having a weekly broadcast shown nationwide. That peak period was too short term as the sport was again forced back underground with little to no fanfare backing it.

Even in the States we've been seeing signs of interest in it being on the decline, which is no surprise just because the US are about as fickle as it gets when it comes to televised sports. Or even televised shows in general. A lot of them receive some interest in the early stages, yet see the ratings fall off the charts. But as far as sports goes, we've seen plenty of sports be able to gain some public interest once introduced to American television audience, but save for the NFL, there hasn't been many at all that have been able to sustain it over the long haul. Boxing, Soccer, Tennis, Hockey, Indy Cars, Nascar, Horse Racing, etc., etc. Shit, not that it's a sport, but since it was on sports channels all the time in recent years, even interest poker has dropped off a ton over what it was 6 or 7 years ago. Boxing had their boom period in the late 70's and into the early 80's on network television, and then interest fell off considerably. On the strength of Pele playing for New York, soccer enjoyed some success on network television during that same time period of the late 70's, but ratings were non-existent for ABC a few years later and it was off the air. Tennis had the big boom period during the 80's with McEnroe, Connors, Borg, Lendl, and them guys, yet weren't able to sustain the interest in the sport for all that long and interest fell significantly. Hockey had some success for FOX when they first signed with them in the mid 90's, yet it wasn't but a few years later when FOX's audience for hockey fell by half. Indy Car racing used to be huge in the States, and not just the Indy 500. Now they're almost non-existent on television as far as ratings go, with even the 500 having lost a ton of it's prestige. People gravitated to Nascar then, but even that has seen a significant decrease in interest the last few years. I just checked some numbers last night in fact, and Nascar drew an average race rating of 5.8 in 2003 when they were in the midst of their boom in popularity. The last couple of years they've barely averaged half of that with their number now down in the 3.5 range. They had a 3.3 average rating in 2010 after having had a 5.5 average rating only four years earlier in 2006. So much for the thought of that being the "fastest growing sport" out there, which what it was considered less than a decade ago. Horse Racing had their "golden age" in the 70's when you could find all the big Grade 1 races on television and then some. The horses back then were superstars and were featured about as much as any other sports star was. Nowadays network television only shows but a few races a year from that sport, with the Derby about the only one that still grabs any sort of rating they could brag about. Even established sports like the NBA and MLB have seen interest decrease after having some higher points in the last 20 or 30 years. Save for the NFL, who has managed to maintain and even slightly increase the audience they grew back in the 70's, practically every sporting entity has seen a significant dropoff in the American public eyes after gaining some kind of peak period of interest over the last 35 or so. Everyone has besides the NFL, and despite what Uncle Dana would have you believe, there will never be a day when the television public will enamoured with the UFC the way it is the NFL.

As much as you want to see MMA growing, and growing, and keep growing, the recent history of sports in general says that is going to be a longshot at best. And MMA is almost 20 tears old to the American public and has a long history that can be tarced bacl many decades. People gain an interest in something and then soon lose interest in that same thing all the time. I used to have a high interest in certain sports like hockey, indy racing, and some others, that I can't even be bothered with nowadays. My interest goes elsewhere. Just like sports (or anything on tv as we've seen with many hit shows plummeting in the ratings before too long) has shown to the audience as a whole. They lose a lot of their initial interest after a time. It's tough to grow interest in something over the haul, and especially so when it's a combat sport which are often viewed as anti-establishment. i.e. They have a limited ceiling because a large portion of the population will never get behind something like that, and will instead do their best to damage its position in sports.

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f2/1-reason-you-think-ufc-s-declining-2088077/index17.html#post68996233

Originally Posted by Sharkey
I'm sure the Klitschkos fighting out of Europe has much to do with their lack of popularity in the States. But, on the other hand, they are a huge attraction overseas and get big ratings when their fights are shown on German TV with the RTL network;

Die neuen Quotenkönige - Vitali und Wladimir Klitschko
Wladimir-Haye (RTL, 02.07.11): 15,50 Mio / 67,0% MA
Vitali-Briggs (RTL, 16.10.10): 13,29 Mio / 57,2% MA
Wladimir-Austin (RTL, 10.03.07): 12,89 Mio / 52,9% MA
Wladimir-Chambers (RTL, 20.03.10): 12,59 Mio / 52,8% MA
Wladimir-Brewster (RTL, 07.07.07): 11,21 Mio / 56,8% MA
Vitali-Kevin Johnson (RTL, 12.12.09): 11,16 Mio / 47,4% MA
Vitali-Solis (RTL, 19.03.10): 10,98 Mio / 40,7% MA
Vitali-Gomez (RTL, 21.03.09): 10,88 Mio / 47,6% MA
Wladimir-Chagaev (RTL, 20.06.09): 10,39 Mio / 50,6% MA
Wladimir-Peter (RTL, 11.09.10): 9,70 Mio / 48,2% MA
Vitali-Peter (RTL, 11.10.08): 9,67 Mio / 48,3% MA
Wladimir-Rahman (RTL, 13.12.08): 9,67 Mio / 41,6% MA
Vitali-Adamek (RTL, 10.09.11): 9,51 Mio / 45,1% MA
Wladimir-Thompson (RTL, 12.07.08): 9,22 Mio / 46,2% MA

I'd say getting 9 to 15 million viewers (and often over viewer 50% share...half the country watching TV is watching them) in a country that maybe has a population of 80 million is pretty damn big.

A couple of sources for those numbers;

"Afterwards, as many as 14.08 million viewers watched WBC World Champion Vitali Klitschko successfully defend his title against the American boxer Shannon Briggs. An average 13.29 million viewers witnesses Klitschko’s clear win on points, an overwhelming 57.2 per cent of the total audience market."

http://www.rtlgroup.com/www/htm/home_news.aspx?ID=FCE80C5132AE4AB79AC3E085E0E0A679

"The Haye fight was in over a 150 countries; the unification fight with Wladimir got over 16 million viewers in Germany, which was the highest rating they ever got for a Klitschko fight. It was a phenomenal rating; it’s higher than the German soccer team."

http://www.maxboxing.com/news/max-boxing-news/they-may-not-play-in-peoria-but-theyll-play-in-poland

Big TV numbers over there, as they do with live audience in attendance for their fights with 40, 50, even 60 thousand showing up to watch them. Their also big commercial successes often seen having on a number of spots on TV selling all sorts of products. They're a huge deal over there even if they're not as well known in America as some of the past champions. Again, American popularity is offset by something on a global stage.

Originally Posted by Sharkey
Denial?
The other poster said "Boxing is a flourishing sport all around the world". Now if the following numbers from the last couple of years don't back up his statement what numbers would?

"The Sunday fight between Daisuke Naito and Koki Kameda did magnificent TV ratings as expected in Japan, with the fight averaging 43.1% and peaking at 52.1% on TBS (Tokyo Broadcasting System)."

http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/11/30/1180013/naito-kameda-fight-does-ridiculous

"Mikkel Kessler has been a big TV draw in the past in his native Denmark, and Saturday's comeback win over Mehdi Bouadla was no different.

On the Danish network TV2, Kessler's fight with Bouadla peaked at 1.137 million viewers, or in more remarkable terms, a 66% share of the TV audience."

http://www.badlefthook.com/2011/6/6/2209414/mikkel-kessler-tv-ratings-denmark-next-fight

"Mikkel Kessler´s fourth-round TKO victory over Gusmyr Perdomo drew an impressive peak market share of 72 per cent on Danish free-to-air broadcaster TV2."

http://www.sportbusiness.com/news/170466/kessler-fight-draws-72-per-cent-market-share

"‘We are all very happy RTL our German TV broadcaster had 16.2 million [viewers]. It was a huge event, very happy about the win there are no questions after that fight maybe about his [Haye’s] little toe,’ Boente said."

http://www.boxingfutures.com/news/0715-boente-says-klitschkos-could-fight-england

"Klitschko beats Haye via 12 round UD.The much needed, much anticipated heavyweight fight between David Haye and Wladimir Klitscho finally took place Saturday night in Hamburg, Germany in front of an astounding 500 million world-wide tv viewers."

http://boxingsociety.com/allboxing/results/haye-falls-to-klitschko-loses-wba-belt.html

"Say what you want about David Haye, the new WBA heavyweight champion, but he sure is one of the hottest commodities in world boxing right now. Proving beyond any doubt he is an attraction in Europe, Haye pulled in close to a million Sky T.V pay-per-view sales for his winning fight with Nikolai Valuev. And, according to various reports, the big money offers have been pouring in ever since."

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=21883&more=1

"WBC junior middleweight champion Saul Alvarez is quickly proving to be Mexico’s biggest boxing star after reportedly drawing 36 million viewers for his recent 12th round knockout win over British challenger Ryan Rhodes last Saturday night."

http://www.boxingnews24.com/2011/06/alvarez-draws-36-million-viewers-in-mexico-for-rhodes-bout/

http://www.boxingscene.com/saul-alvarez-generating-huge-tv-ratings-mexico--40673

"It's being said Morales-Maidana a rating figure of 25 points, which is a little higher than the huge rating generated by Saul 'Canelo' Alvarez's title winning effort over Matthew Hatton in March."

http://www.boxingscene.com/morales-maidana-draws-huge-rating-beats-canelo-hatton--38133

"Nearly five million viewers watched last Saturday's big professional boxing event from Mulheim, Germany."

http://www.boxingscene.com/abraham-nearly-five-million-watch-king-arthurs-return--36133

Etc, etc.

As far as only a couple of big PPV events a year goes in North America, that's pretty much been the norm for boxing for ages. Even in the pre-PPV era when closed circuit was relied upon. Even going back to the Leonard, Hagler, Hearns, Duran days. Most years there was only two or three closed circuit events such as the two Leonard-Durans fights and the Holmes-Ali fight in 1980. That was it for closed circuit action that year.

"In 1986 there were only two closed circuit fights: Marvin Hagler's middleweight title defense against John Mugabi and a triple header featuring Thomas Hearns, Barry McGuigan and Roberto Duran in seperate bouts."

- page 137 of Stephen Brunt's 'Mean Business'

The big money closed circuit events back then involved only the big money fighters. Just like the big money PPV events in boxing nowadays involve the big money fighters. The rest of the major fights find their way to television in North America or somewhere else around the world. Over here the likes of HBO & Showtime can afford to pay the fighters six and even seven figures to give us important fights. Shit, we've even had a number of legitimate championship fights shown on those premium channels during the last year or so without them asking us to fork over PPV dollars...Marquez-Katsidis (Champ vs #1 contender), Martinez vs Pavlik & Dzinziruk, Pascal-Hopkins for light heavyweight championship (twice...two top 5 LHW fought on one broadcast as well), Klitschko vs Haye, etc. Legit championship fights that Dana White would be asking PPV dollars for. They've also given us plenty of other important fights too with both fighters being ranked inside the top 5 for their division...Donaire-Montiel, Ortiz-Berto, Rios-Acosta, Rios-Antillon, Khan-Maidana, Bradley-Alexander, Klitschko-Adamek, Lopez-Salido, Mares-Agbeko, etc. All fights between two guys ranked top 5 at the time. Showtime is showing the finals of the Super Six shortly too without asking for PPV dolars, and that's a fight between the two top rated guys in their division, thus it will decide the Ring Magazine championship;

http://ringtv.craveonline.com/ratings/super-middleweight

You say MMA puts on multiple PPVs a month sometimes? I say it must suck somewhat to be an MMA-only fan then. Boxing fans in North America (and throughout the world) gets big fights and legitimate championship fights all the time without forking over PPV dollars. All the time. Granted, Dana White is giving fans a couple of championship fights off of PPV shortly here, so he does get credit for that. First time since Rampage-Henderson, I believe?

Kid Chocolate wrote:Rogan the pothead made DiBella the Harvard graduate sit quiet like a bitch.

Deal with it

StillWill wrote:I hate to always post about MMA with a negative attitude, but the sport has really taken a turn for the worse these past 5 years... Its hard to be excited now. Its just not the same product.

Johan Lofgren wrote:

StillWill wrote:I hate to always post about MMA with a negative attitude, but the sport has really taken a turn for the worse these past 5 years... Its hard to be excited now. Its just not the same product.

I understand your frustration but I´m still positive about mma. If M-1 or KSW becomes big in all of Europe everything will be great. Maybe JMMA will rise again and DREAM becomes the new PRIDE like it was supposed to. I´m looking 5 years ahead.

Fisticuffa wrote:Btw the fight that put UFC on the radar was Bonar-Griffin which was nothing but an ugly sloppy Boxing fest IIRC.

Don't disgrace Boxing by associating it with Griffin/Bonnar.

With MMA all but dead in Japan as far as TV ratings go lets take a look how well did Boxing do against Sumo, Japans favorite combat sport past time. Once you look below the top rated Combat sport in all of Japan for the year of 2011 was Boxing.

The Year: 2011
The Setting: Japan

Top Rated MMA show for 2011 *** note only MMA event to hit the top 10***

12/31/2010 Dynamite MMA tournament on TBS 9.8%


Top Rated Sumo event for 2011

09/25/11 Sumo-Akibasho final day 15.6%

Top Rated Boxing event for 2011
08/31/11 Kameda , David Boxing 16.7%


rest of 2011 for Boxing that hit top 10 in viewership for that day

01/31/2011 Boxing Miura , Shimoda, Uchiyama Lee 7.6%
I0/11/11 Sho Ioka Ioka, Oredon Boxing 10.9%
08/10/11 a Sho fan Hernandez's first world title defense against Sho-Ioka Ioka a boxing 16.6%
12/07/11 World Title Match Takeshi Kamedao × Teparitto 14.7% 3 times that day 10.2%, 9.8%
11/06/11 Esquivel Yamanaka × × Bosukiero-Ao The REAL • World Championship Boxing Nippon Television 8.4
04/08/11 Ao Sen war Nishioka × Gonzalez & Hozumi Hasegawa World Championship Boxing 10.5%
11/06/11 Yamanaka x Ao Real World Championship Boxing 8.4%

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f53/2011-japan-boxing-king-combat-sports-ratings-look-back-redux-2090371/

Kid Chocolate wrote:Rogan the pothead made DiBella the Harvard graduate sit quiet like a bitch.

Deal with it