The decline of the UFC , the awakening of the fans and the innevitable mma reform

The only time I ever EVER saw what I would consider mma being mainstream was my time spent in Japan, that was mainstream. In america not even close.

I don't know what's so ridiculous about the fact that the UFC did introduce MMA to the American public. That's how I even got introduced to Pancrase and Shooto, because the UFC opened my eyes to other organizations by grabbing my attention and intriguing me enough to seek out anything that was remotely similar.

I think the UFC did a great thing with establishing this market because without it most likely, it would've been an underground sport for much longer than it had been. It is the UFC that allowed enough interest to bring pay per view broadcasts of Pride over because of all the familiar names. It was the UFC's achievement of bringing fights to cable television to even allow Bellator and EliteXC and Strikeforce to be broadcasted or even established, in a way.

Disagree all you want about their business practices but you can't deny the fact that the UFC did A LOT for the American MMA scene. I believe they did create this market, while ISKA and whatnot never really got off the ground with Kickboxing and full contact karate.

PRIDE NEVER DIE wrote:The only time I ever EVER saw what I would consider mma being mainstream was my time spent in Japan, that was mainstream. In america not even close.

Because they approached it like pro wrestling in the way they established stars, made it larger than life, and brought in outsiders like Olympians, puro artists, and general celebrities. They made it a big deal while the UFC just seems content with doing their own thing, which has equated to a fairly boring product and they're afraid of really doing anything outside of the norm.

Most of what the UFC did to open doors was the SEG era. Zuffa has done very little but steal the TUF idea from WWE. People fail to realize how much America would love mma. Sadly the biggest company is run by a retarded pig of a man. Dana White has never done anything to advance mma. He has only hindered it.

retrocausality wrote:Most of what the UFC did to open doors was the SEG era. Zuffa has done very little but steal the TUF idea from WWE. People fail to realize how much America would love mma. Sadly the biggest company is run by a retarded pig of a man. Dana White has never done anything to advance mma. He has only hindered it.

Pretty much this.

If SEG was never hit by McCain's crusade in the late 90s, they probably wouldn't have ever been bought by Zuffa and who knows what could've happened then.

@wekka Rorion Gracie and Bob Meyerwitz did more as far as opening up people's eyes in America to Mma than zuffa. And if it wasn't for the tampering that they did with their hostile financial takeovers and cornering of the Mma market mindshare , the landscape would live been ripe to allow other orgs to flourish. Who knows what would've happened if UFC shut its doors and pride would've become succesfull here in the states. Instead it received opposition and slander.

wekka wrote:I don't know what's so ridiculous about the fact that the UFC did introduce MMA to the American public. That's how I even got introduced to Pancrase and Shooto, because the UFC opened my eyes to other organizations by grabbing my attention and intriguing me enough to seek out anything that was remotely similar.

I think the UFC did a great thing with establishing this market because without it most likely, it would've been an underground sport for much longer than it had been. It is the UFC that allowed enough interest to bring pay per view broadcasts of Pride over because of all the familiar names. It was the UFC's achievement of bringing fights to cable television to even allow Bellator and EliteXC and Strikeforce to be broadcasted or even established, in a way.

Disagree all you want about their business practices but you can't deny the fact that the UFC did A LOT for the American MMA scene. I believe they did create this market, while ISKA and whatnot never really got off the ground with Kickboxing and full contact karate.

I've never argued that the UFC is not the reason that MMA has the level of exposure it does today in many places in the world today. The Fertitta's did not invent the UFC or MMA though. While they have greatly helped expand it, largely due to the SPIKE TV platform, their expansion of it has been a seriously double-edged sword for where they have steered the sport under their captaincy. Bigger never ever has always meant better.

You can't avoid giving credit to Dana and the Fertitta's for some positive things that have come out of their reign. The same can be said though of the guys responsible for the following...

Computer
Jet Airplane
Rocket
Rocket Powered Ballistic Missiles
American Space Program
Cruise Missile
Stealth Technology
IR Night Vision
Guided Missiles (Ground-to-ground, air-to-air, air-to-ground, ground-to-air, ship-to-ship)
Guided Bombs
Assault Rifle
Bar Codes
Interstate Highways Systems
Modern Sewage Treatment Technology
Magnetic Tape Audio Recording
First Television Broadcast
The Volkswagen


Sometimes I'm to smart for my own good

You can't run a sport like the ferttitas and not expect it to start to suck. they aren't investing shit back into the sport. not sure where all the moneys going. right into their pockets or their failing casinos? all i do know is its not getting put back into the sport and definitely not going to fighters.

Sodak wrote:You can't run a sport like the ferttitas and not expect it to start to suck. they aren't investing shit back into the sport. not sure where all the moneys going. right into their pockets or their failing casinos? all i do know is its not getting put back into the sport and definitely not going to fighters.

+1

I think there are two lines of argument going on. The original topic has to do with a perception that the UFC is on the decline, or has foreseeable problems to that effect, etc.

Whether the UFC is good or not really has nothing to do with it. Whether the argument is made from a perspective that this is good or not is also irrelevant. From this perspective, raising the issue of positivity or negativity in reference to the original precept is a strawman.

Not that it isn't an argument which isn't worth having, it is just separate from the original topic.

nodogoshi wrote:I think there are two lines of argument going on. The original topic has to do with a perception that the UFC is on the decline, or has foreseeable problems to that effect, etc.

Whether the UFC is good or not really has nothing to do with it. Whether the argument is made from a perspective that this is good or not is also irrelevant. From this perspective, raising the issue of positivity or negativity in reference to the original precept is a strawman.

Not that it isn't an argument which isn't worth having, it is just separate from the original topic.

agreed, but which way from here?

PRIDE NEVER DIE wrote:The only time I ever EVER saw what I would consider mma being mainstream was my time spent in Japan, that was mainstream. In america not even close.

well, it seems your just a bit silly Pride. Fox in the US is more mainstream then anything in Japan at any time. Mainstream in Japan is fringe bud.

retrocausality wrote:Most of what the UFC did to open doors was the SEG era. Zuffa has done very little but steal the TUF idea from WWE. People fail to realize how much America would love mma. Sadly the biggest company is run by a retarded pig of a man. Dana White has never done anything to advance mma. He has only hindered it.

UFC is not to blame for everyone else's failure to successfully promote to the US audience.

That wasn't my point. My point is the UFC could be way bigger, It has been run into the ground by zuffa. SEG built the brand and made the real difference.

I'm sorry but just because you're fox doesn't mean you're main stream. Is the man vs bear food eating contest mainstream because it was on fox? 3 out of the 5 shows on fox have absolutely tanked in the ratings department.

and Pride was very mainstream in japan. Fuji TV is huge and pride was on monthly, and did two shows with close to 70,000 is attendance.

retrocausality wrote:That wasn't my point. My point is the UFC could be way bigger, It has been run into the ground by zuffa. SEG built the brand and made the real difference.

I'm sorry but just because you're fox doesn't mean you're main stream. Is the man vs bear food eating contest mainstream because it was on fox? 3 out of the 5 shows on fox have absolutely tanked in the ratings department.

and Pride was very mainstream in japan. Fuji TV is huge and pride was on monthly, and did two shows with close to 70,000 is attendance.

Ok, but that's not actually counter intuitive to my point. Which was holistically; If the UFC is stupid, what is everyone else who fails to get even that far? I could not care less if this is due to SEG's work or Zuffa's. The fact is no one else has come close.

3-5mil viewer on network US is mainstream guys. Like i've said before, y'all like to act like 10 people are worth 10 people. It's not true. GDP is a huge factor only I seem to care about. 70,000 Japanese fans is not worth 70,000 US fans. Now, I know no one actually has the numbers, but I do holistically assume there are more US fans at a US show. So what's the difference? about half. Little under actually. That is to say it differently, the average Japanese has about half the spending money of the average American. Doesn't mean he makes half, he could well make more but it's tied up. Hence why Pride ends up being bought by UFC.

The US is in a deep recession where are you getting everyone has all this money? Food stamps are up 25 percent.

Guys are there any stats that the UFC has had a bad 2012?

I would like to say they have but it's hard to say when they have a good +15 events than 2011

are they doing well ? or are they just putting out maximum and just about getting back what they were in previous years when their product wasnt so dilated and the casuals were all tuning in for cash cow lesnar in the UFC's peak 2008-2010

Dana White's credit has been downgraded. That says a lot.

I mean really? UFC always lie about their PPV numbers. Dave Meltzer always has the real figures

are we really dumb to believe the saitama arena in japan sold out 20,000?

In UFC nottingham i heard they gave away a shit load of free tickets like UFC was shitty BAMMA

A private company wont release their figures. they dont have to

If Mma were presented with more class , honor and dignity (as an Olympic type event) perhaps it would've won over that boxing fan sector of old farts that only support boxing and the UFC could be much better off then catering to this instant boom fad from the generation x youngsters who have short attention spans and move on to the next trend as soon as they are programmed to.

Longtime Fan wrote:If Mma were presented with more class , honor and dignity (as an Olympic type event) perhaps it would've won over that boxing fan sector of old farts that only support boxing and the UFC could be much better off then catering to this instant boom fad from the generation x youngsters who have short attention spans and move on to the next trend as soon as they are programmed to.

I really liked the way IFL presented the fights (ignoring the goofy fight team names) they had a good professional set up with the ring and stuff.

UFC are a carbon copy of WWE. They cater to brain dead masses who have been conditioned by TV.

marchegiano wrote:

retrocausality wrote:That wasn't my point. My point is the UFC could be way bigger, It has been run into the ground by zuffa. SEG built the brand and made the real difference.

I'm sorry but just because you're fox doesn't mean you're main stream. Is the man vs bear food eating contest mainstream because it was on fox? 3 out of the 5 shows on fox have absolutely tanked in the ratings department.

and Pride was very mainstream in japan. Fuji TV is huge and pride was on monthly, and did two shows with close to 70,000 is attendance.

Ok, but that's not actually counter intuitive to my point. Which was holistically; If the UFC is stupid, what is everyone else who fails to get even that far? I could not care less if this is due to SEG's work or Zuffa's. The fact is no one else has come close.

3-5mil viewer on network US is mainstream guys. Like i've said before, y'all like to act like 10 people are worth 10 people. It's not true. GDP is a huge factor only I seem to care about. 70,000 Japanese fans is not worth 70,000 US fans. Now, I know no one actually has the numbers, but I do holistically assume there are more US fans at a US show. So what's the difference? about half. Little under actually. That is to say it differently, the average Japanese has about half the spending money of the average American. Doesn't mean he makes half, he could well make more but it's tied up. Hence why Pride ends up being bought by UFC.

This is patently untrue. Japan is a rich country, Japanese people are affluent, Tokyo is one of the most expensive cities in the world. Japanese on average have more disposable income because income inequality is less in Japan than it is in the US. Tickets to a show in Japan are no less expensive than tickets to a show in the US. Often times things like concert tickets are more expensive in Japan.

Pride was sold to the ufc due to them agreeing to run Pride the way the dse owners wanted. Feg at the time had the money and wanted Pride. Man I dont know what to make of you at this point man.

retrocausality wrote:The US is in a deep recession where are you getting everyone has all this money? Food stamps are up 25 percent.

Agreed, I dont understand why people cannot get this. Almost everyone here is broke man.

PRIDE NEVER DIE wrote:Pride was sold to the ufc due to them agreeing to run Pride the way the dse owners wanted. Feg at the time had the money and wanted Pride. Man I dont know what to make of you at this point man.

Japanese government was also involved in getting the go ahead to sell PRIDE to Lorenzo. As a condition of the sale agreement Zuffa was required to keep PRIDE based in Japan and to keep running events there. There was another potential buyer as well as Lorenzo but it would seem his better bid parceled together with the "keep PRIDE running in Japan" conditions sealed the deal for Lorenzo.

It is important to note that Lorenzo agreed to all terms of the sale even though at the time PRIDE did not have a network TV partner. He was well aware of this yet still signed the deal.

Like with the UFC when Zuffa bought it, they could have continued to run PRIDE events sans-broadcast TV relying on gate and PPV. Sure they might have risked losses but they did this for 6 years losing $50M until TUF. How could you lose that much money if only 50% of the normal crowd showed up. That would be like 15-20K people. Even if things dropped worse than that they still would have probably gotten as big or bigger crowds than the UFC from 2001-2006.

Lorenzo said at the big PRIDE acquisition press conference that this was a long-term investment and that their goal was to keep PRIDE/JMMA alive and run yearly UFC-PRIDE superbowl events. Why wouldn't Zuffa at least hold 2?, 3?, 4?, etc. events and then assess where things were going with PRIDE in Japan. I'll tell you why they didn't... THEY NEVER INTENDED TO.

They never ran or even announce one PRIDE event. This alone was a violation of a condition of sale for the organization as well as a failure to live up to what they promised Japanese government officials.

Lorenzo and Dana stood in front of the Japanese media, all PRIDE fighters, and all of JMMA and lied through their F***'n teeth. As we see through Zuffa's history, their M.O. is to buy any major competitor strip out all the assets and then burn their business to the ground. The only proactive business move they did with PRIDE after the deal was signed was to fire all of the staff and close PRIDE offices before a single event was even announced.

If PRIDE would have been bought by someone else... they would have simply downsized to the core fans. From there they would have had an opportunity to rebuild trust in the brand and who knows what would have happened.

Dana & Lorenzo hate black people.