Bellator 97: Askren vs Koreshkov - July 31 (Official Discussion)

Realidea wrote:

Sweet Pea Is My Mom wrote:

Realidea wrote:

Sweet Pea Is My Mom wrote:Chandler might be the best LW on the planet.

 

Care to elaborate?

 he has 2 decent wins and 1 real good win. again mma fans jump off and on fighters way to quick. if he wins his next fight and looks like shit he sucks if he wins like he did tonight hes the Best Eva. let him fight better competition before calming hes the Best. he's top 7 for sure

That's why I said might. Between Ben, Gray, Pettis, Grant, Gil, Chandler & Thomson, the top of the LW division is pretty evenly matched, and on any given Sunday one of these guys could beat the other. I actually think Chandler's resume is somewhat underrated, as he gave Alvarez his first loss in years & dominated the very tough (and big) Rick Hawn; he also has some decent wins against mid-tier guys like Woodard, Rickels & Patricky. Resume aside, nothing beats the ol' eye test, and from what I saw last night, Chandler's surprisingly technical boxing, wrestling and speed are a nightmare for most in this division. I wouldn't be shocked if he just walked into the UFC and beat Bendo.

Sweet Pea Is My Mom wrote:

Realidea wrote:

Sweet Pea Is My Mom wrote:

Realidea wrote:

Sweet Pea Is My Mom wrote:Chandler might be the best LW on the planet.

 

Care to elaborate?

 he has 2 decent wins and 1 real good win. again mma fans jump off and on fighters way to quick. if he wins his next fight and looks like shit he sucks if he wins like he did tonight hes the Best Eva. let him fight better competition before calming hes the Best. he's top 7 for sure

That's why I said might. Between Ben, Gray, Pettis, Grant, Gil, Chandler & Thomson, the top of the LW division is pretty evenly matched, and on any given Sunday one of these guys could beat the other. I actually think Chandler's resume is somewhat underrated, as he gave Alvarez his first loss in years & dominated the very tough (and big) Rick Hawn; he also has some decent wins against mid-tier guys like Woodard, Rickels & Patricky. Resume aside, nothing beats the ol' eye test, and from what I saw last night, Chandler's surprisingly technical boxing, wrestling and speed are a nightmare for most in this division. I wouldn't be shocked if he just walked into the UFC and beat Bendo.

Spot on! Styles make fights and Chandler looks to have the right skills to beat up anyone in the division.

Askren is utilizing loopholes by being active as fuck?

Askren is no different than Arona.

He also attempted about three submissions, two of which were fairly deep.

Dagwood wrote:

MR.WILLIE wrote:

Dagwood wrote:

MR.WILLIE wrote:Askren wrestling is second to none in mma

Second to none in unified rules cage fight. Same with GSP. You can't use those same top control wrestling strategies without attempting to submit or KO your opponent in many other top MMA leagues overseas. You'll get stood up and then yellow carded riding an opponent much of the time in a very static position and not attempting subs or not throwing big enough strikes to KO or really hurt them.

You gotta learn your MMA rules. There is a lot of different sets of them. Unified rules are not the only rules in MMA. The cage is not the only place where fights take place where the cage is used extensively and affects out comes of fights.

Askren is second to none in North American MMA or in unified rules/cage fighting.

If he or GSP with their specific skill-set and strategy where to employ that back in PRIDE or today in a lot of big orgs overseas the ref would say...

Well I don't care if they fight in the beach, askren wrestling is great, he dominates and damages his opponents...we can disagree on rules, cage or ring, whatever but the reality of things is that you have to ko him in the feet but in the ground this kid is impressive

Yes his wrestling is great. The skillset and strategy that he is using is not what MMA was intended to be when the sport was formed nor did anyone foresee the game being so skewed towards wrestling. As I've said, the object of the game WAS to submit or KO your opponent. Simple as that. Don't anybody give nothing about no time limits or head soccer kicks or whatever.

Askren, GSP, and Greg Jackson have figured out loopholes that no one ever intended to be there. No one. It was supposed to be a fair contest for any or all martial arts forms. The object of the game was to submit your opponent. Decisions we're more unintended consequences than any kind of goal. This has now been turned completely on its' head.

As for the beach... Royce Gracie & GJJ already proved that laying in wait eternally with a huge worldclass wrestler in your guard until they made on single mistake ends/wins the fight. Why should a world-class wrestler like Askren be unbeatable off the beach??? Exactly which skill, technique, or strategy that you saw Askren use last night would beat Royce Gracie in the first UFC's?, the beach?, the street?, the grocery store? None. None. He couldn't KO or submit someone if he tried. This is so far from the spirit of NHB  - Vale Tudo - or where the sport of MMA was started it really is unbelievable.

The unified rules and the cage are making the sport of MMA veer sideways only to fall off into obscurity HERE at some point. We are clearly seeing serious bias in the rules towards wrestling and a changing of the object of the game. I do not remember this happening in any sport in my life time.

Luckily for the rest of the entire other world of MMA and me, there is MMA outside of the US, Canada, Brazil or wherever the unified rules & the cage are used.

Well.....I also have the pleasure to enjoy international mma in a ring you are not the only one, of all of those events have you seen a dominant ground fighter as good as this kid?

He only got hit 3 times in 4 rounds...

Don't know why you want to diminish his success....?

fka wrote:Wekkas right askren can do this to anyone he gets his arms around.being Olympic calibur doesn't come easy while its not mma it is far higher level grappling then anything anyone in mma can offer.and lets be honest every fight askren has he turns into a straight grappling match something no one will best him at.

Ben Askren is truly something special. There is nobody that wrestles like him. Jimmy Smith said he is perhaps the best NCAA wrestler in the last 10 years, and it is actually true, that is excepting Kyle Dake, and perhaps David Taylor. 10 years ago or so is Cael Sanderson, undefeated 4x NCAA champion and Olympic gold medalist. Kyle Dake just graduated with 4 titles in 4 weight divisions, and David Taylor is a one time champ and 2x runner up (losing to Dake and Bubba Jenkins) who is a senior next year. In fact, if it wasn't for two guys named 'Bubba Jenkins' and 'Kyle Dake', David Taylor would be an undefeated 3x NCAA D1 champion. Askren is a 2x NCAA D1 champion, and a 2x D1 runner-up. He probably is the best NCAA wrestler between Sanderson and Dake, and Taylor.

Askren's style is also really unique though. Look up some of his wrestling matches as well.

Sweet Pea Is My Mom wrote:Chandler might be the best LW on the planet.

I agree. And Askren is possibly the best welterweight. I'd say that if both guys keep up their winning ways over an additional 4 or so fights, it will be hard to argue otherwise. Chandler was really impressive.

Dagwood wrote:

MR.WILLIE wrote:Askren wrestling is second to none in mma

Second to none in unified rules cage fight. Same with GSP. You can't use those same top control wrestling strategies without attempting to submit or KO your opponent in many other top MMA leagues overseas. You'll get stood up and then yellow carded riding an opponent much of the time in a very static position and not attempting subs or not throwing big enough strikes to KO or really hurt them.

You gotta learn your MMA rules. There is a lot of different sets of them. Unified rules are not the only rules in MMA. The cage is not the only place where fights take place where the cage is used extensively and affects out comes of fights.

Askren is second to none in North American MMA or in unified rules/cage fighting.

If he or GSP with their specific skill-set and strategy where to employ that back in PRIDE or today in a lot of big orgs overseas the ref would say...

I don't really agree. I think that he is active enough to prevent this kind of issue. He also tailors his fights to the ruleset, quite obviously. You have a point in that sense, but I think that he has enough activity to where he wouldn't necessarily be penalized under different rules.

I wish he went for more submissions. But I guess he figures why risk it.

Realidea wrote:

Sweet Pea Is My Mom wrote:

Realidea wrote:

Sweet Pea Is My Mom wrote:Chandler might be the best LW on the planet.

 

Care to elaborate?

 he has 2 decent wins and 1 real good win. again mma fans jump off and on fighters way to quick. if he wins his next fight and looks like shit he sucks if he wins like he did tonight hes the Best Eva. let him fight better competition before calming hes the Best. he's top 7 for sure

I think the competitive curve in MMA is also much quicker than say boxing though. Occasionally you get a fighter with under 10 wins in a major fight in boxing, but this is very rare, and in every case it is a fighter with an extensive amateur pedigree. In MMA, the depth is much less, and the sport is much younger, and you often have fighters thrown in deep early. I think this accounts for some of the shifting opinions on fighters, simply because things develop quickly. You do have a fair point though, as well. Fickleness also does abide.

MR.WILLIE wrote:

Dagwood wrote:

MR.WILLIE wrote:

Dagwood wrote:

MR.WILLIE wrote:Askren wrestling is second to none in mma

Second to none in unified rules cage fight. Same with GSP. You can't use those same top control wrestling strategies without attempting to submit or KO your opponent in many other top MMA leagues overseas. You'll get stood up and then yellow carded riding an opponent much of the time in a very static position and not attempting subs or not throwing big enough strikes to KO or really hurt them.

You gotta learn your MMA rules. There is a lot of different sets of them. Unified rules are not the only rules in MMA. The cage is not the only place where fights take place where the cage is used extensively and affects out comes of fights.

Askren is second to none in North American MMA or in unified rules/cage fighting.

If he or GSP with their specific skill-set and strategy where to employ that back in PRIDE or today in a lot of big orgs overseas the ref would say...

Well I don't care if they fight in the beach, askren wrestling is great, he dominates and damages his opponents...we can disagree on rules, cage or ring, whatever but the reality of things is that you have to ko him in the feet but in the ground this kid is impressive

Yes his wrestling is great. The skillset and strategy that he is using is not what MMA was intended to be when the sport was formed nor did anyone foresee the game being so skewed towards wrestling. As I've said, the object of the game WAS to submit or KO your opponent. Simple as that. Don't anybody give nothing about no time limits or head soccer kicks or whatever.

Askren, GSP, and Greg Jackson have figured out loopholes that no one ever intended to be there. No one. It was supposed to be a fair contest for any or all martial arts forms. The object of the game was to submit your opponent. Decisions we're more unintended consequences than any kind of goal. This has now been turned completely on its' head.

As for the beach... Royce Gracie & GJJ already proved that laying in wait eternally with a huge worldclass wrestler in your guard until they made on single mistake ends/wins the fight. Why should a world-class wrestler like Askren be unbeatable off the beach??? Exactly which skill, technique, or strategy that you saw Askren use last night would beat Royce Gracie in the first UFC's?, the beach?, the street?, the grocery store? None. None. He couldn't KO or submit someone if he tried. This is so far from the spirit of NHB  - Vale Tudo - or where the sport of MMA was started it really is unbelievable.

The unified rules and the cage are making the sport of MMA veer sideways only to fall off into obscurity HERE at some point. We are clearly seeing serious bias in the rules towards wrestling and a changing of the object of the game. I do not remember this happening in any sport in my life time.

Luckily for the rest of the entire other world of MMA and me, there is MMA outside of the US, Canada, Brazil or wherever the unified rules & the cage are used.

Well.....I also have the pleasure to enjoy international mma in a ring you are not the only one, of all of those events have you seen a dominant ground fighter as good as this kid?

He only got hit 3 times in 4 rounds...

Don't know why you want to diminish his success....?

I definitely counted more than 3 strikes, but it was a very dominant performance and he took little damage.

He was elbowed at least twice while on the top at the end of the first or second round. He was also kneed while diving for a takedown in the 2nd or 3rd round. There are three strikes, and he was definitely hit more times than that. But, he was hit little, and he dominated.

nodogoshi wrote:

Dagwood wrote:

MR.WILLIE wrote:Askren wrestling is second to none in mma

Second to none in unified rules cage fight. Same with GSP. You can't use those same top control wrestling strategies without attempting to submit or KO your opponent in many other top MMA leagues overseas. You'll get stood up and then yellow carded riding an opponent much of the time in a very static position and not attempting subs or not throwing big enough strikes to KO or really hurt them.

You gotta learn your MMA rules. There is a lot of different sets of them. Unified rules are not the only rules in MMA. The cage is not the only place where fights take place where the cage is used extensively and affects out comes of fights.

Askren is second to none in North American MMA or in unified rules/cage fighting.

If he or GSP with their specific skill-set and strategy where to employ that back in PRIDE or today in a lot of big orgs overseas the ref would say...

I don't really agree. I think that he is active enough to prevent this kind of issue. He also tailors his fights to the ruleset, quite obviously. You have a point in that sense, but I think that he has enough activity to where he wouldn't necessarily be penalized under different rules.

I wish he went for more submissions. But I guess he figures why risk it.

"Active enough"... "keeping busy" means little to nothing in say... M-1. Their rules dictate that you are actively attempting to finish your opponent throughout a fight. Especially from a dominant top position. This is the object of the game that was initially intended for MMA.

Even in PRIDE the rules were much more closer to this than anything over here. That is the 'main' reason why there where so many more submissions, KO, submission attempts, killer GNP from distance in the guard, and on and on. The proof is even more in the pudding in M-1. Submissions, KO's, submission attempts, KO-strength GNP from distance in the guard are way more prevalent there.

The only thing that separates Judo from JJ is their rules. The only thing that separates cricket from MMA is the rules.

M-1 Rules wrote:
Negative points – Yellow Cards

When in a dominant position, a fighter is encouraged to FINISH (not just keep busy) by effective striking or submission by the referee’s command of “work to finish.”

If either fighter does not obey the command and actively seek dominant positions and finishes, they may receive a yellow card, which will result in a negative point deduction.

Dagwood's e.g. - Mr. Askren or Mr. St Pierre. You are for looooong periods of time (sometime a whole fight) in a dominant top position yet are 'not' attempting to submit or KO your opponents (Baby punches or jabs are not trying attempting to KO your opponent). Every time you do that, after a short period of time I will be yelling "work to finish" when you are in that dominant top control position. If you continue to fight with this techniques and strategy... I will issue you a yellow card and deduct a point from the judges scorecard.

If you continue to fight this way avoiding trying to finish your opponent by submission or with KO-level strikes Mr. Askren or Mr St Pierre... you will be DQ'd.


Criteria for the Judges decision

#1. Effort to finish the fight by KO or submission
2. Damage
3. Standing combinations and ground control
4. Takedowns and defense
5. Aggressiveness
6. Weight differences (15 Kilos or more at heavyweight)
7. Stamina and Physical endurance



Scoring
1. Effort to finish by KO or submission
Fighters who are striking with force and intention that may result in a KO will be awarded in this criteria, that applies both standing and on the ground. “Catch” or near submissions, as well as multiple attempts will score in this criteria.

2. Damage
Any strike that does damage or accumulations of strikes that result in damage are awarded here. Damage may be visible such as a cut or bruised leg, or it may be shown by an opponent’s reaction to a strike such as favoring a leg that has been kicked or turning away from a body shot. A near submission may also result in damage points.

5. Aggressiveness
The fighter who is pressing the action while standing, seeking dominant position on the ground AND working to finish the match, will score here.

http://www.m-1global.com/rules/

If there are not major changes in the Unified Rules of MMA bringing the sport back to the original intent of the game... it will never reach its full potential here. Never. IMO - it will falter regardless of what organization is at the top.

At this point every camp and their fighters would be stupid if they didn't focus their fighters strictly on wrestling TD's and top control. Nothing else. They'd be stupid if they didn't model the unbelievable successful strategy and techniques of Askren or GSP.

A gold medalist Olympic wrestler from the Russian Republic or Iran would be stupid not to come over here and sign with Greg Jackson today. That's a sure money bet to cash in on GSP-kinda' MMA success. Way more money than any nation over there pays for a wrestling gold medal.

GSP & Askren have proven defacto that you do not need to have/use any other skills striking or submission-wise in order to completely dominate in MMA 'here' in a cage under the Unified Rules.

Does Ben Aksren have better top-control, TD's, overall wrestling technique, and athleticism than a Toghrul Asgarov, Artur Taymazov, or his own country's Jordan Burroughs??? Didn't UFC 1 & PRIDE prove that world-class wrestling alone did not guarantee success or championships. The rules and the ring in the latter were much better and a much truer test in proving who was the best all around fighter anywhere.

Now we are seeing the Unified Rules have loopholes in them that give wrestlers a big advantage. Things that were never intended that steer the game well away from a submit or KO your opponent sport. The cage even makes it worse. Essentially Askren & GSP have proven you can NEVER attempt submissions or throw full power punches for an entire career and be a GOAT of MMA. This is a joke. It will hurt MMA big time in the long run.

The funny part is I've never seen a wrestling match where the guy on top was not trying to pin/finish their opponent.  

Wrestling itself is in a huge state of hurt right now. It is struggling for its survival. It can't draw better TV ratings in the Olympics than little girls in leotards playing with strings and beach balls. How is it good for MMA, GSP, & Jackson if they turn this sport into what is tantamount to wrestling that allows slaps to an opponent.

MMA over here will fall off big time as this trend grows (and it will). If TV ratings, PPV buys, and live attendance has dropped a whole lot since 2010-11 here... just wait! MMA here needs some serious fixing and realignment with the contest it was originally intended to be.

The thing is that we cannot discount wrestling as a big part of mma. Mark Coleman was the UFC champ and won the pride gp with GNP, so don't say wrestling doesn't work in a ring people

MR.WILLIE wrote:The thing is that we cannot discount wrestling as a big part of mma. Mark Coleman was the UFC champ and won the pride gp with GNP, so don't say wrestling doesn't work in a ring people

Great example. You just shot down your own argue in flames people.

I never said that wrestling doesn't work in MMA. Ben Askren or GSP are NOT winning by (Askren one fight maybe not) by doing anything like Mark Coleman did. Not even close. Your KO'ing or submitting your own argument.

Mark Coleman used wrestling to TD people & use wrestling control to hold them down while he pounded them them into a KO/pulp. His goal was to KO (not really submit in his case) his opponent using world class wrestling to set up substantial enough GnP that could finish his opponent. He was doing exactly what the game of MMA was originally intended to accomplish. PRIDE Rules were much more in line with this. That's why it's not dying.

The best wrestlers of all-time in MMA very much did the same as Coleman.. Randleman, Kerr, Severn, and even Randy. Randy though, initiated using the cage as a pinning tool which was a distinct advantage to a wrestler. This set MMA here on it's current path.

On that note. What tools to pin an opponent are there in Freestyle or Greco-Roman Wrestling... or Judo or BJJ? The ground... right? No tools, outside obstacles, clown's noses, or ferris wheels. 'Hand' to 'hand' combat no weapons... tools.... or whatever. A 3 year old kid can hold back a 250lb man and a 100'lb door with a 3lb broom jammed at angle under the door knob. Effectively the cage let's you do that when used as a tool in an MMA fight. That is not fair and skews things towards pinning specialists, not strikers, or submission grapplers.

Wresting alone without suplexing a guy or pile driving him on his head is not going to KO or submit anybody in MMA. Nor is it on a beach or in the street. A "GSP or Askren fight style and strategy for the most-part if not all the time can't even accomplish this. This is a bit crazy cause the skillsets they have in many areas  are so superior to their opponents. In fact the 'choose' not to submit or KO their opponents. Thats' a slap in the face of the guys who started this whole thing. How is that in the spirit of MMA or MMA's origins. It has nothing to do with the sport's regulation here.

The object of the game WAS to submit or KO your opponent until recently when somebody figured out you really never have to attempt to do that they way the Unified Rules were written 20 years ago. These guys with a distinct wrestling advantage... avoid many, if not all, real opportunities to submit or KO their opponent. This is only because someone did not foresee loopholes in the rules that would change the object of the sport today. This is is ridiculous.

The 'same' high-level wrestling techniques and strategies would 'not' have the same result outside of a cage or without the Unified Rules of MMA. There quote me on that one! Many places the rules don't allow it. In some other places you have to be trying to finish your opponent while your in a dominant position with submission attempts or long punches hard enough to KO them. If you don't, your are stood up, warned, issued yellow cards, or DQ'd.

Askren would probably fight differently under different rules. What he is doing is fighting very effectively given the state of the rules. You can argue against the rules, but you can't discredit a fighter for utilizing the state of the rules to win fights. It is also rather superficial to argue that he couldn't abide by a different ruleset simply because he follows the given rules.

nodogoshi wrote:Askren would probably fight differently under different rules. What he is doing is fighting very effectively given the state of the rules. You can argue against the rules, but you can't discredit a fighter for utilizing the state of the rules to win fights. It is also rather superficial to argue that he couldn't abide by a different ruleset simply because he follows the given rules.

I'm am railing against the current state of MMA here under the Unified Rules in a cage. It wouldn't matter if the guys I was using as exampls were named Ren Baskren or GPS. 

It is hard for me to give huge praise to many, most or all of Askren or GSP MMA performances when their fights are in essence wrestling matches with out them ever trying to pin their opponent or continually be working toward a fall. Wrestling is in a terrible position today... can you imagine this had been going on there cause someone figured out loopholes in the rules that change the sport???

The Akren & GSP slappy pitty-patty stuff is just a ploy to avoid the ref from standing them up for a restart. That way they can endlessly run out the clock from most-times what is essentially static top-control positions Theoretically never have to attempt submissions or throw full power punches on the ground to attempt to KO their opponents on the ground. Theoretically??? Haha.

I give them both huge credit for their wrestling prowess. But if I wanted to solely watch great wrestling... I'd choose to watch the best in the world at International meets and the Olympics. Maybe even Ben Askren would be there. 

The Unified Rules and the cage have now morphed the sport of Mixed martial Arts here from a 'submit or KO' your opponent sport to "Wrestling" without pinning as the main object of the game. This is crazy.

I don't blame Randy, Ben, George or Greg Jackson. By enlarge I blame Dana, Lorenzo, the UFC, & Zuffa. They have commandeered MMA here just like they have the octagon cage. They have showed about zero stewardship for the sport itself. They don't even know what that stewardship means. Their sole focus on dominating the entire world purely for their own self interest, power, and greed is steering the sport here continually sideways and downward. The idiocy is that they know they have big issues with the fighting style & strategy I've been railing about but have no clue they are largely responsible for it continuing to grow. They can't even identify the core issues.