Setting the record str8 USSR/RUS vs USA Oympic Wrestling/Overall Head to Head

I get so sick of seeing this crap on all the zombie sites trying to declare American wrestling dominance everywhere as well the American athlete being the best the world has ever seen.

To set the record straight from a guy who has been around to witness the 1968 Olympics until today.

Well now let's see MMA prognosticators, American wrestlers are the best are they??? Mmm... American athletes are the best ever are they???

Let's start out with the "Athlete" question...



Population

USSR/Russia: 200M+
USA: 300M+




USSR/Russia vs USA at the Olympics (Head to Head Competition)

USSR/Russia (18) vs USA (1) Overall Medal Competiton


USSR/Russia (1074) vs USA (821) Total Medals Olympic history


*USSR/Russia could not compete in the modern Olympics for 40 years, in which the USA did, due to wars revolution & famine



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2008 Beijing Summer Olympics - Wrestling

Freestyle - Gold Medals: Russia 3 - USA 1

Greco-Roman - Gold Medals: Russia 3 - USA 0



Freestyle - Gold Medals USSR 5 - USA 1

Greco-Roman - Gold Medals: USSR 4 - USA 0



It's pretty obvious which country is the best at 'ALL' Olympic wrestling. Not only that but that country is also a fair bit better than the USA at freestyle wrestling contrary to popular opinion in the MMA community over here.

*Important - Russia & the USSR was 'unable' to compete in the Olympics for 40+ years during the 20th century due to revolution, world wars & much more. Talking into account when Russia and the USSR competed 'head to head against' the USA in wrestling at the Summer Olympics... the USA has been completely 'pwned' by Russia & the USSR. No freakin' contest!

I don't follow wrestling closely but correct me if I am wrong in Greco-Roman Karelin is considered the greatest of all time and in free style the consensus is on Buvaisar Saitiev?

Both of them from Russia & who competed not so long ago.

You would have to be pretty good I think to have both wrestling ATG's coming from your country.

Fisticuffa wrote:I don't follow wrestling closely but correct me if I am wrong in Greco-Roman Karelin is considered the greatest of all time and in free style the consensus is on Buvaisar Saitiev?

Both of them from Russia & who competed not so long ago.

You would have to be pretty good I think to have both wrestling ATG's coming from your country.

Haha. No I'm not Russian, I'm Canadian.

I have huge issues as time goes on as time goes on with ignorance on the mostly white American-dominated MMA boards. The amount of RUS bashing that goes on is unbelievable. Their fighters, promoters, governments, culture, religion, et al. There is also a lot of stereotyping of Russian people. If just a fraction of this was stated in the context of Afro-Americans or Jews or Israel, people would get banned at the major MMA forums.

What way too many posters on these forums don't know is that from the 1950's to the 1990's when Russia's republics broke away, the USA ran a fairly distant second to the USSR at the Olympic games. Every games but one out of the 19 times they met... the Soviet Union completely dominate for overall medals. 18-1 is a skunk where I'm from.

The reality is, that Russian athletes along with it's former republics have proved to be the best athletes over the modern-era of the Olympics.

The Americans are inferior to a little island nation called Cuba when it comes to wrestling, boxing and judo. Okay, maybe not wrestling, although the US has been weak in recent years in wrestling too. With Russia it isn't even a contest.

Just looking over the lists, there are no less then 3 weight divisions for 2008 Olympics in which every medalist was from a former Soviet country. Freestyle 84 and 96 and Greco 60. That's sort of impressive stuff.

Russians are just as nationalistic as Americans

Zombies have this view that NCAA level wrestling is higher than Olympic level, simply because Brock and all these other UFC fighters only achieved NCAA level, and of course they believed Dana when he hypes up Brock et al that they are the best wrestlers.

well, Americans only care about the Olympics so much anyway. National and Pro titles tend to trump the once every 4 Am Awards. We like our boxers to have some gold, but don't care about that nearly as much as a pro title. Same for team sports. Wrestling's unique in that it's "pro" version is fake, but nonetheless what I speak is truth. Americans care more about the WWE belt than Olympic Gold.

With that said, I do not feel it's fair to not mention my man Dan Gable. Unscored against in the 70's I think 74 olympics. Something like 15 years with out a loss.

Only retards can't see that Russia has the highest level of wrestling, bar none.

But I have never seen an instance of someone calling D-1 wrestling superior to Olympic wrestling, considering Cael Sanderson had to bust his ass to make the team considering he is undefeated in his collegiate career.

marchegiano wrote:well, Americans only care about the Olympics so much anyway. National and Pro titles tend to trump the once every 4 Am Awards. We like our boxers to have some gold, but don't care about that nearly as much as a pro title. Same for team sports. Wrestling's unique in that it's "pro" version is fake, but nonetheless what I speak is truth. Americans care more about the WWE belt than Olympic Gold.

With that said, I do not feel it's fair to not mention my man Dan Gable. Unscored against in the 70's I think 74 olympics. Something like 15 years with out a loss.

That sort of argument has some truth, but also some short comings when you consider that Russian and Eastern Europeans have been dominating the upper ranks in boxing as well. Cuba, a communist country (and a small island nation) with no professional sports, produces some of the most masterful boxers (and baseball players), as can be seen in the ranks of the defectors.

Not really dude. Nothing I said was meant to reflect actual talent with the exception of the Gable bit. Just because we're presently getting our ass kicked in pro sports doesn't mean we don't hold those accolades to a higher standard.

marchegiano wrote:Not really dude. Nothing I said was meant to reflect actual talent with the exception of the Gable bit. Just because we're presently getting our ass kicked in pro sports doesn't mean we don't hold those accolades to a higher standard.

It just seems like you sort of implied that the reason Americans aren't as strong in wrestling is because they value pro sports instead. If wrestling was a popular pro sport in the US, maybe they'd be on the same level, but I see no reason to say they necessarily would be, hence the Cuban and Russian boxer example. I know people say that the reason HW boxing sucks is because of the NBA and NFL, but that's also kind of stretching it to me, for similar reasons. This sort of argument is really just too speculative, and to me it seems like an apologetic argument for why American wrestling isn't as strong. Maybe it is because the Americans don't value wrestling as much, maybe it is because the Russians are so good. Probably it's both, but that doesn't mean that the Americans would be as good as the Russians if it was a professional sport. It's really confusing the original point though, which is that the Americans are, in fact, not as good as the Russians at wrestling (or so was the argument in the OP anyway. Based on Olympic and World's performances, such argument is not really controversial though.)

marchegiano wrote:Not really dude. Nothing I said was meant to reflect actual talent with the exception of the Gable bit. Just because we're presently getting our ass kicked in pro sports doesn't mean we don't hold those accolades to a higher standard.

Face it, Americans have all the equipment they would ever need and all the money in the world. The problem is that most Americans are in fast food joints stuffing their face in. Americans feature prominently in Football (American Football), in baseball, and in NASCAR but only because no one else or hardly anyone else plays them.

America is languishing in many international sports like F1, Football (soccer), and Rugby.

nodogoshi wrote:

marchegiano wrote:Not really dude. Nothing I said was meant to reflect actual talent with the exception of the Gable bit. Just because we're presently getting our ass kicked in pro sports doesn't mean we don't hold those accolades to a higher standard.

It just seems like you sort of implied that the reason Americans aren't as strong in wrestling is because they value pro sports instead. If wrestling was a popular pro sport in the US, maybe they'd be on the same level, but I see no reason to say they necessarily would be, hence the Cuban and Russian boxer example. I know people say that the reason HW boxing sucks is because of the NBA and NFL, but that's also kind of stretching it to me, for similar reasons. This sort of argument is really just too speculative, and to me it seems like an apologetic argument for why American wrestling isn't as strong. Maybe it is because the Americans don't value wrestling as much, maybe it is because the Russians are so good. Probably it's both, but that doesn't mean that the Americans would be as good as the Russians if it was a professional sport. It's really confusing the original point though, which is that the Americans are, in fact, not as good as the Russians at wrestling (or so was the argument in the OP anyway. Based on Olympic and World's performances, such argument is not really controversial though.)

Yes, I understand that that's how I'm coming across, and I really am trying to find a good way of rewording because my point doesn't really have to do with talent or why an athlete does or does not participate. I'm more getting at the mind set of american fans. Athletes are athletes, and will go where ever they can make a name for themselves. All athletes applicable would like a gold medal I'm sure. I promise I'm not trying to make an excuse for my nation's athletic programs nor am I implying we'd do better if there was more fan support. The whole damn world watches the Olympics....It's cool to be great for your fans, but to be great for fans of an entirely different sport is a whole different world. I don't think that escapes any athlete. A boxing fan cares more about a WBC world champion than a gold medalist, but the ice skating fan is likely to only care about the few boxing matches they sat through waiting for their event, and so there the gold means much more.

What I mean to be getting at is how easy it is to claim your a great wrestler to an American audience. They wanted to believe before Brock was a fake wrestler he was one of the best real wrestlers on the planet to validate their arguments. Brock joining the UFC to any MMA fan was a joke. There was a ton criticism from fans and fighters throughout all of Brock's career based off him being a fake wrestler. Zuffa got who they could to believe in their bullshit about college wrestling, but I believe that's only because the American audience recognizes fake wrestling and people lean to who they recognize and once they've favored someone they tend to vehemently search for reasons other that the truth to rationalize believing in someone based off recognition. I guess i'm saying it's easier for an american to believe in nonsense than admit he's ignorant to the situation, and has been successfully marketed to. I know a lot of my fellows use a lack of interest as an excuse, but I reckon that's a similar style of grasping based off marketing again.