Who´s the Best HW boxer of all time?

George Foreman imo, what do you think?

It's so difficult to compare across eras. I haven't watched enough classic boxing to really have an answer. It always seems like it's sort of a two man race between Ali and Joe Louis though, and I can't really disagree. But it'd certainly be interesting to hear thoughts on this.

And yes, Foreman is a very special fighter. And by that, I am not being dismissive at all, I respect that pick.

The guy was incredible.

If Foreman would have won against Ali that night people would consider him GOAT instead of Ali. Foreman was better but the heat ruined him. They should have fought indoors with air condition in a pro sports arena.

PRIDE FC wrote:If Foreman would have won against Ali that night people would consider him GOAT instead of Ali. Foreman was better but the heat ruined him. They should have fought indoors with air condition in a pro sports arena.

I hear what you're saying, but the thing is Foreman didn't fight on much longer after that.

As we know, he came back 10 years later at the age of 38, had a 34 fight and 9 and a half year second career, became lineal heavyweight champion in 1994, and made history in the process by becoming the oldest heavyweight champion in history.

However, we will never know what might have happened if he had beat Ali. He only fought 6 more times, prior to his second career. In his next fight, he was nearly stopped by Ron Lyle. He would win his next 4 fights by stoppage, included a second victory over Joe Frazier, though Frazier was well faded by this time (he was coming off the third Ali fight) and only fought once more, before dropping a decision to Jimmy Young, and retiring for 10 years, at age 28.

So really, the talk of if he would have not fallen for the rope-a-dope, or the Zaire heat, and beat Ali as he should have (should he have?) is really all woulda-coulda-shoulda, and not really grounded in the reality of the actual events of Foreman's career.

Rocky Marciano

ali....hands down......

nodogoshi wrote:

PRIDE FC wrote:If Foreman would have won against Ali that night people would consider him GOAT instead of Ali. Foreman was better but the heat ruined him. They should have fought indoors with air condition in a pro sports arena.

I hear what you're saying, but the thing is Foreman didn't fight on much longer after that.

As we know, he came back 10 years later at the age of 38, had a 34 fight and 9 and a half year second career, became lineal heavyweight champion in 1994, and made history in the process by becoming the oldest heavyweight champion in history.

However, we will never know what might have happened if he had beat Ali. He only fought 6 more times, prior to his second career. In his next fight, he was nearly stopped by Ron Lyle. He would win his next 4 fights by stoppage, included a second victory over Joe Frazier, though Frazier was well faded by this time (he was coming off the third Ali fight) and only fought once more, before dropping a decision to Jimmy Young, and retiring for 10 years, at age 28.

So really, the talk of if he would have not fallen for the rope-a-dope, or the Zaire heat, and beat Ali as he should have (should he have?) is really all woulda-coulda-shoulda, and not really grounded in the reality of the actual events of Foreman's career.

Just counting wins-losses Ali gets the nod over Foreman but I like to look at the performance as well. Foreman was much, much more impressive against Frazier than Ali was and he walked right through most of his opponents. Imo Foreman would have won 9 out of 10 times against Ali but that´s just my opinion.

PRIDE FC wrote:

nodogoshi wrote:

PRIDE FC wrote:If Foreman would have won against Ali that night people would consider him GOAT instead of Ali. Foreman was better but the heat ruined him. They should have fought indoors with air condition in a pro sports arena.

I hear what you're saying, but the thing is Foreman didn't fight on much longer after that.

As we know, he came back 10 years later at the age of 38, had a 34 fight and 9 and a half year second career, became lineal heavyweight champion in 1994, and made history in the process by becoming the oldest heavyweight champion in history.

However, we will never know what might have happened if he had beat Ali. He only fought 6 more times, prior to his second career. In his next fight, he was nearly stopped by Ron Lyle. He would win his next 4 fights by stoppage, included a second victory over Joe Frazier, though Frazier was well faded by this time (he was coming off the third Ali fight) and only fought once more, before dropping a decision to Jimmy Young, and retiring for 10 years, at age 28.

So really, the talk of if he would have not fallen for the rope-a-dope, or the Zaire heat, and beat Ali as he should have (should he have?) is really all woulda-coulda-shoulda, and not really grounded in the reality of the actual events of Foreman's career.

Just counting wins-losses Ali gets the nod over Foreman but I like to look at the performance as well. Foreman was much, much more impressive against Frazier than Ali was and he walked right through most of his opponents. Imo Foreman would have won 9 out of 10 times against Ali but that´s just my opinion.

I hear you, but the thing is that he didn't recover from the Ali loss, and ended up retiring early, after losing to a journyman. My case is that we don't know how good he may have been. Although again, he was apparently never the same after Ali.

But that isn't to denigrate your side of it.

Kind of like how people still insist that the Mike Tyson who fought Michael Spinks was the most fearsome heavyweight of all time.

It's complete nonsense. But in the case of Foreman, there is actually a decent argument. And Foreman fought in a much tougher era than Tyson.

Tyson was just a sensation. He's nowhere near the best heavyweight, nowhere near. Foreman though can be in the discussion, though certainly a minority pick for near the top.

Tyson was a sensation no doubt but the Ali, Foreman, Frazier era was the best. If we put all of these legends against each other in a modern arena I feel prime Foreman would be the best guy. Tyson would be top 10 but not top 5.

Frazier is also among the top boxers and he was better than Ali. Frazier has 4 losses on his record, 2 TKOs to Foreman, 1 decision and one stoppage loss to Ali. The stoppage was in round 14 because the ref thought he couldn´t see and Frazier was winning on the scorecards. Frazier also had a win over Ali.

Ali lost to Frazier shortly after the conclusion of his 3 year exile from boxing. He avenged the loss, twice.

nodogoshi wrote:Ali lost to Frazier shortly after the conclusion of his 3 year exile from boxing. He avenged the loss, twice.

Ali and Frazier were very even and the third fight wasn´t a clear cut win for Ali. Frazier's trainer refused Frazier to continue before the last round.

I also want to add what Ali did against Liston was disgusting and cheating. He didn´t go back to his neutral corner and ran around Liston screaming so he couldn´t get up.

Do you have something against Ali?

I couldn't really compare Ali's fights with Frazier to Foreman's all too much either, as with completely different styles, you're always going to have completely different results.

Rocky Marciano, Jou Loius, Ali. Pick one.

Wekka i admire alis skills but he was extremely disrespectful to other people.

wekka wrote:Do you have something against Ali?

I couldn't really compare Ali's fights with Frazier to Foreman's all too much either, as with completely different styles, you're always going to have completely different results.

Hehe, I was sort of starting to get that impression myself.

I say Ali, personally. I maintain that it is perhaps a two man race though between him and Louis.

But I understand Johan's points. Indeed, no one really knows. In terms of accomplishments/resume it is probably Ali though. At least as I understand it.

There's in fact another guy who's so often forgotten, but perhaps also belongs in the conversation.



Hell, even Evander Holyfield. Holyfield is one of the best fighters of the 1990s in any division, and I consider him quite high on the list of all time heavyweights. In his prime, of course.

And I know he took two losses to Bowe (one win), but he fought Bowe in thw worst way he possibily could have. A 6'3 205 pound heavyweight in Holy, vs a 6'5 240 pound heavyweight in Holyfield, and what does Holyfield do? Proceed to walk right inside, and trade blow after blow after blow with the bigger man. I swear, he was just trying to prove a point, win or lose.

Ill always have a special place for Holyfield. He was absolutely incredible to watch. He had the boxing to beat anyone but more times than not, he was more than willing to slug it out. One of the most athletically gifted boxers of all time and the Bowed trilogy is also one of the best series of all time.

ali by a mile, he beat foreman, frazier 2 times, olympic gold medalist, liston...





also ali danced on liston but sunny used an ilegal substance on his gloves, so wich one is worst, he deserved that ali kick him in the nuts for what he did...dont understand the hate...

MR.WILLIE wrote:ali by a mile, he beat foreman, frazier 2 times, olympic gold medalist, liston...





also ali danced on liston but sunny used an ilegal substance on his gloves, so wich one is worst, he deserved that ali kick him in the nuts for what he did...dont understand the hate...

There´s no hate. Ali was an amazing athlete but I don´t like how he treated other people, especially Joe Frazier.

I take it back.

Ali may have been the most athletic top HW boxer.

But, he did a lot of things wrong.

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong, by the way, if Ali wasn't that athletic. I think he was a great athlete, though. Basically, he got away with things that other fighters wouldn't get away with, because he was very athletic.

I don't know who the best HW boxer is. I'm actually leaning toward Joe Louis. His reign of domination was legendary.

Of course, it's very hard to compare across eras. If we could have the mythical tournament, with all of the best heavyweights, from Jack Johnson, to Louis, to Marciano, to Frazier, to Foreman, to Holmes, to Lewis, to the Klitchko brothers, etc., who knows who would win.

MR.WILLIE wrote:ali by a mile, he beat foreman, frazier 2 times, olympic gold medalist, liston...





also ali danced on liston but sunny used an ilegal substance on his gloves, so wich one is worst, he deserved that ali kick him in the nuts for what he did...dont understand the hate...

Then I read this post, and again, I'm not sure.

Maybe Ali. I don't know.

Ali is consistently ranked as the number 1, or number 2, for a reason.